System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

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peter64
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System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by peter64 »

Hey Guys,

Regarding compatible displays the list is growing and thanks to RTINGs.com and there awesome reviews I have all the data I need to figure out which TV's will likely be compatible.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/table/138933
You require 120hz, it's best if they have 120hz BFI or a 120hz PWM backlight but not strictly necessary
If it's an LCD it requires a low response time in theory but the X95K has (80% 4.0 ms 100% 9.9 ms) and that seems to work fine.
If it's an OLED it needs to have low persistence BFI (<50% duty cycle) or you will gt lots of ghosting, this can be confirmed by looking at the BFI frequency picture.
Almost all the necessary data to make a judgement if a TV will be compatible is in that table, the only thing that isn't is whether the scanout speed is faster than the refresh rate.
But that can only be really confirmed by testing on the actual TV.
If you already own a TV though you may be able to gt some clues by looking for the vertical blanking interval in CRU (custom resolution utility) it will show you how long the VBI is.
If it has a reasonable large VBI (or you can increase the VBI to be more than 30% by adding a custom resolution like I did with the ViewSonic XG2431) then you can totally eliminate any ghosting.

During the beta testing period I am planning to sell the emitter and one pair of M size glasses for $100 with tracked international shipping. (additional glasses are $40 per pair of M size or $30 per pair of S size glasses)
If the unit does not work for you satisfactorily I will offer a full refund minus shipping if you pay to ship the unit back to me and it is in a similar condition to how I sent it to you.
So you will be out about $20 if you ship it by untracked air mail (the cost of shipping to you and shipping back to me).
If later you want additional glasses they will be $40 for each pair of M size + $30 for each pair of S size + $20 for tracked internally shipping.

The unit does also work with any panasonic, sony and 3d vision glasses, but it works best with my custom firmware panasonic glasses or 3d vision glasses, as they resynchronize on dropped frames in (0 frames and 1-2 frames respectively).
Also my custom firmware glasses and 3d vision glasses phase adjust on every frame, instead of every few seconds like other glasses from other manufacturers.
This is useful to avoid any jitter at the top and bottom of screen, as things need to be timed really precisely when you don't have much vertical blanking interval to work with.

If you are interested please reply here and/or email support at open3doled dot com, I don't seem to get any email notifications from this forums PM (private messaging) system.

If you are curious how the system works take a look at the design and source code at https://github.com/open3doled/open-3d-oled
Last edited by peter64 on Mon Oct 07, 2024 12:07 am, edited 6 times in total.
savannah
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by savannah »

What specific feedback or assistance are you looking for from beta testers, especially those with Python programming ability, and how can they contribute to improving the functionality of your system? build now gg
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Hey so as I mentioned above,

1) I'm looking to understand what models of TV's it works on. So far I know it works on LG OLED C1 and Sony XBR 48a9s perfectly, but only with the strongest BFI setting. Since BFI functions differently on different OLED TV's both between generation and between manufacturers I'm looking to get the precise timing settings that give the best results on different TV's. The timing parameters are also related to the glasses you are using I have tested with 3d vision first gen, panasonic ir glasses 1-3 gen, and sony glasses (out of sony glasses it works best on the latest TDG-750 variant, Also kind of works with earlier ones too, but earlier ones don't fully support the 4 token IR protocol they claim to support) and have different profiles for each that work well with my LG C1 OLED.
2) I'm looking for bug testing the open source python software to try and improve performance on certain systems and also to add functionality that people may find useful (or allow others to add said functionality).

Right now the software has native SRT stereo subtitle support with depth settings, and afew other stereo specific features, FullSBS, HalfSBS, FullOverUnder, HalfOverUnder, Flip left and right eyes, etc....
It supports any video format that gstreamer gst-play can parse properly on the target system but gstreamer sometimes has issues with mkv matroska packed files with 6-10 Multilanguage DTS5.1 streams so you sometimes need to strip out all the audio streams you don't want using ffmpeg. But I have some simple commands to do that.

Also if we can get this working well I think this will be a killer app for the TONS of people with LG and Sony OLED TV's even if only 0.1% want to watch 3D movies. It's basically a system that runs decently on almost any moderately specked PC at least under linux currently, (I'm considering to try to get it running adquately for 1080P on a rasperrypi 5 but unfortunately the PI doesn't have hardware H264 decoding so I'm not too hopeful it will work well) with no requirement for 3d vision or quad buffer opengl. And the hardware is an order of magnitude cheaper than VIP 3D or other FPGA based SBS to FrameSequantial systems.
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Also another big plus is if you can run the software under both Windows and Linux as it's probably best to nail down optimal settings in Linux then if possible provide any help one can to improve the windows performance after.
As for providing contributions, as I mentioned above I plan to put all the necessary code on a github repo in the next few months with the open source license details.
AmelieTurner
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by AmelieTurner »

Because it's usually better to find the sweet spot on Linux and then, if possible, offer any assistance one can to improve Windows performance afterward, being able to run the software under both Windows and Linux is also a huge plus.
Regarding making contributions, I intend to post the required code on a GitHub repository along with the specifications of the open source license in the coming months, as I indicated earlier.hill climb racing
toedreadful
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by toedreadful »

As of right now, the software supports native SRT stereo subtitles with depth settings in addition to a few other stereo-specific capabilities like Flip left and right eyes, FullSBS, HalfSBS, FullOverUnder, and HalfOverUnder.
It supports any video format that gstreamer gst-play can correctly read on the target system. However, gstreamer can occasionally have problems with mkv matroska packed files that contain six or ten Multilanguage DTS5.1 streams; in these cases, you will need to use ffmpeg to remove all of the audio streams that you do not want. But I can accomplish that with a few easy instructions.
laurawoods
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by laurawoods »

AmelieTurner wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:42 am Because it's usually better to find the sweet spot on Linux and then, if possible, offer any assistance one can to improve Windows performance afterward, being able to run the software under both Windows and Linux is also a huge plus.
Regarding making contributions, I intend to post the required code on a GitHub repository along with the specifications of the open source license in the coming months, as I indicated earlier. Buckshot Roulette
I don't understand your explanation.
brianallen
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by brianallen »

The best way to find participants or beta testers may be through technology forums, technical communities or websites that specialize in TV, 3D and technology. You can also use social networks to share information and find interested people.
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

laurawoods wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:27 pm
AmelieTurner wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:42 am Because it's usually better to find the sweet spot on Linux and then, if possible, offer any assistance one can to improve Windows performance afterward, being able to run the software under both Windows and Linux is also a huge plus.
Regarding making contributions, I intend to post the required code on a GitHub repository along with the specifications of the open source license in the coming months, as I indicated earlier. Buckshot Roulette
I don't understand your explanation.
Thanks guys, so I've solved most of the performance issues I think, at least to my satisfaction for now. Probably another month or so and I'll have the github online.

To the person above who said they don't understand, it will probably be easier to understand when I have images and a full detailed blog and/or video showing how it works.
The main point is to confirm which TV's it will work with and generate timing parameters for those TV's for various types of glasses to get optimal performance.
This is akin to what the nvidia driver would do automatically and why they are only supported certain certified displays (because not all displays will work properly and those that will, will require proper timing parameters).
I have a step by step process one can go through to find the proper timing parameters for a given display though so it shouldn't be too bad.

Still looking for anyone interested. I'll be cross posting elsewhere too soon.
3DNovice
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by 3DNovice »

I added your original post to a more active sub-forum, where I started a thread about a product doing this very thing called Athanos.

I think it it would be huge if you could add Checkerboard support, then theoretically, 4K DLP Projectors that are using a two flash/pixel shift DMD could be used
for stereoscopic video playback as well.

It would be fantastic if you could make a plug-in for 3DMigoto as well, plus the fish tank viewing.
FishtankVR for The Witcher 3 viewtopic.php?t=23645

Also FWIW, at least one of the post above is spam, refer to
viewtopic.php?t=26680 Countering Forum Spam

example, use the quote feature for toedreadful, you will see a malicious link

Anyhow, I do think the addition of Checkerboard would be huge, just like Samsung and Mitsubishi TVs did stereoscopic 3D via wobulation using the Checkerboard format.
Robert256
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by Robert256 »

Hi Peter,

This looks very much like a project I was planning, using a light sensor and digispark (ATTiny85), but never got the timings right, probably because it wasn't fast enough. Would love to contribute to your project! I mostly have Win32 C/C++ experience with OpenGL.

Best regards, Robert
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Robert256 wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 2:09 pm Hi Peter,

This looks very much like a project I was planning, using a light sensor and digispark (ATTiny85), but never got the timings right, probably because it wasn't fast enough. Would love to contribute to your project! I mostly have Win32 C/C++ experience with OpenGL.

Best regards, Robert

Hey Robert,

Fantastic man! It sounds like you have soldering skills too! If you are interested I can send you a working detector board in the mail.
Please let me know what types of shutter glasses you have. It does work with off the shelf shutter glasses from Panasonic, Sony and 3D Vision.
Also let me know what type of TV you are planning to test on so I can confirm that it will most probably work, or at least has a chance of working.
I'm also keen for someone to test it using a high speed LCD panel with strobing backlight.
Compatible monitors would be those listed on the following page https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/mo ... -insertion with a "backlight strobe frequency picture" similar to this one https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/gM ... -large.jpg
I tried it on a regular monitor without strobing and the scrolling refresh made it unworkable, I suspect strobing might be sufficient to get it working with normal monitors.
As I said above any OLED with high BFI settings will work at least to some extent.

In terms of getting the timings right, I'm working on a somewhat simple process that will kind of guide you through the process of setting up the timings while you view ghosting and cross talk to get the best image.
I should be done that hopefully in the next week or so.
About half of my time was spent reverse engineering the Panasonic 3d glasses and the Sony 3d glasses so that I could re-write my own custom firmware.
This was really important because the OLED timing seems to drift a little bit and you need to make the glasses more responsive to changes in timing, than the default firmwares.
The default firmwares take about 5-10 frames to resynchronize onces they detect any drift (or dropped frames in the case of software page flipping), which makes them have a jitter effect at the top and bottom of the screen.
The custom firmware I worked on updates timings instantly and will never show the wrong picture to the wrong eye (at least not completely, sometimes it might start to show the wrong picture to the wrong eye, but it will detect the dropped frame immediately and correct itself.
It can cause a brightness spike on one eye for 1 frame though as the right eye will receive two frames in a row while the left eye will miss a frame for example.
it's not too bad though if it only happens once every 1-2 minutes as it's basically like blinking, and it shouldn't happen on faster PC's at all at least from my testing under linux.

Anyways the sensor I am stuck using is unfortunately the OPT101 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opt101.pdf) sensor. I looked into digital sensors, specifically the OPT4001 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opt4001.pdf) which has digital thresholds to trigger interrupts which would be ideal to offload all the ADC processing required, but unfortunately it's fastest conversion time is 600 us. Using the OPT101 with an ADC fast sampling I can get conversion times of around 40us which is 10x better at reducing jitter and improving responsiveness to dropped frames.
Given 120hz corresponds to 8.333 ms per frame, you can't really afford to have a jitter of 600us so the opt4001 was no good so I am stuck with the OPT101 which unfortunately costs $7-8 per unit and you need two for the device to work right.
The cheapest I found them was on aliexpress for $5 if you buy in bulk, but avoid anything under $5 as they are all scams (I had 3 different sellers sell me bad chips).

Anyways let me know your TV and your glasses type and I'll let you know then I can send you a board to help me test with and work on the software.
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

3DNovice wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 2:02 am I added your original post to a more active sub-forum, where I started a thread about a product doing this very thing called Athanos.

I think it it would be huge if you could add Checkerboard support, then theoretically, 4K DLP Projectors that are using a two flash/pixel shift DMD could be used
for stereoscopic video playback as well.

It would be fantastic if you could make a plug-in for 3DMigoto as well, plus the fish tank viewing.
FishtankVR for The Witcher 3 viewtopic.php?t=23645

Also FWIW, at least one of the post above is spam, refer to
viewtopic.php?t=26680 Countering Forum Spam

example, use the quote feature for toedreadful, you will see a malicious link

Anyhow, I do think the addition of Checkerboard would be huge, just like Samsung and Mitsubishi TVs did stereoscopic 3D via wobulation using the Checkerboard format.
Thanks for adding it to another thread.
It may be possible to add checkerboard support for displays that support it as that would entirely eleviate any issue surrounded with dropped frames from software page flipping. As you would never end up needing to quickly resynchronize the glasses.
Also the Athanos stuff sounds interesting I had never heard of it and don't have time to look right now, but once I get this code up on github so it's in the public domain I might check it out. I want to make sure this is out and in the public domain before I look at anything related.
Robert256
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by Robert256 »

peter64 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:20 am
Hey Robert,

Fantastic man! It sounds like you have soldering skills too! If you are interested I can send you a working detector board in the mail.
Please let me know what types of shutter glasses you have. It does work with off the shelf shutter glasses from Panasonic, Sony and 3D Vision.
Also let me know what type of TV you are planning to test on so I can confirm that it will most probably work, or at least has a chance of working.
I'm also keen for someone to test it using a high speed LCD panel with strobing backlight.
Compatible monitors would be those listed on the following page https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/mo ... -insertion with a "backlight strobe frequency picture" similar to this one https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/gM ... -large.jpg
I tried it on a regular monitor without strobing and the scrolling refresh made it unworkable, I suspect strobing might be sufficient to get it working with normal monitors.
As I said above any OLED with high BFI settings will work at least to some extent.

In terms of getting the timings right, I'm working on a somewhat simple process that will kind of guide you through the process of setting up the timings while you view ghosting and cross talk to get the best image.
I should be done that hopefully in the next week or so.
About half of my time was spent reverse engineering the Panasonic 3d glasses and the Sony 3d glasses so that I could re-write my own custom firmware.
This was really important because the OLED timing seems to drift a little bit and you need to make the glasses more responsive to changes in timing, than the default firmwares.
The default firmwares take about 5-10 frames to resynchronize onces they detect any drift (or dropped frames in the case of software page flipping), which makes them have a jitter effect at the top and bottom of the screen.
The custom firmware I worked on updates timings instantly and will never show the wrong picture to the wrong eye (at least not completely, sometimes it might start to show the wrong picture to the wrong eye, but it will detect the dropped frame immediately and correct itself.
It can cause a brightness spike on one eye for 1 frame though as the right eye will receive two frames in a row while the left eye will miss a frame for example.
it's not too bad though if it only happens once every 1-2 minutes as it's basically like blinking, and it shouldn't happen on faster PC's at all at least from my testing under linux.

Anyways the sensor I am stuck using is unfortunately the OPT101 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opt101.pdf) sensor. I looked into digital sensors, specifically the OPT4001 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opt4001.pdf) which has digital thresholds to trigger interrupts which would be ideal to offload all the ADC processing required, but unfortunately it's fastest conversion time is 600 us. Using the OPT101 with an ADC fast sampling I can get conversion times of around 40us which is 10x better at reducing jitter and improving responsiveness to dropped frames.
Given 120hz corresponds to 8.333 ms per frame, you can't really afford to have a jitter of 600us so the opt4001 was no good so I am stuck with the OPT101 which unfortunately costs $7-8 per unit and you need two for the device to work right.
The cheapest I found them was on aliexpress for $5 if you buy in bulk, but avoid anything under $5 as they are all scams (I had 3 different sellers sell me bad chips).

Anyways let me know your TV and your glasses type and I'll let you know then I can send you a board to help me test with and work on the software.
Hi Peter,

I've only basic soldering experience, but enough to play around with some simple Arduino/digispark stuff. I've a 144Hz Asus monitor and MSI laptop with 4k 120 Hz LCD screen. I have several pairs of 3D Vision glasses (first and second generation) as well as a 3DV compatible model. Would love to try out your board for 3D Vision and can hopefully contribute to the software and firmware. It's not a problem to pay for the board and shipping, just send me a PM.
Btw. I was planning to use a simple analog photo cell. Isn't that possible?

Best regards, Robert
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Robert256 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:59 am
peter64 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:20 am
Hey Robert,

Fantastic man! It sounds like you have soldering skills too! If you are interested I can send you a working detector board in the mail.
Please let me know what types of shutter glasses you have. It does work with off the shelf shutter glasses from Panasonic, Sony and 3D Vision.
Also let me know what type of TV you are planning to test on so I can confirm that it will most probably work, or at least has a chance of working.
I'm also keen for someone to test it using a high speed LCD panel with strobing backlight.
Compatible monitors would be those listed on the following page https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/mo ... -insertion with a "backlight strobe frequency picture" similar to this one https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/gM ... -large.jpg
I tried it on a regular monitor without strobing and the scrolling refresh made it unworkable, I suspect strobing might be sufficient to get it working with normal monitors.
As I said above any OLED with high BFI settings will work at least to some extent.

In terms of getting the timings right, I'm working on a somewhat simple process that will kind of guide you through the process of setting up the timings while you view ghosting and cross talk to get the best image.
I should be done that hopefully in the next week or so.
About half of my time was spent reverse engineering the Panasonic 3d glasses and the Sony 3d glasses so that I could re-write my own custom firmware.
This was really important because the OLED timing seems to drift a little bit and you need to make the glasses more responsive to changes in timing, than the default firmwares.
The default firmwares take about 5-10 frames to resynchronize onces they detect any drift (or dropped frames in the case of software page flipping), which makes them have a jitter effect at the top and bottom of the screen.
The custom firmware I worked on updates timings instantly and will never show the wrong picture to the wrong eye (at least not completely, sometimes it might start to show the wrong picture to the wrong eye, but it will detect the dropped frame immediately and correct itself.
It can cause a brightness spike on one eye for 1 frame though as the right eye will receive two frames in a row while the left eye will miss a frame for example.
it's not too bad though if it only happens once every 1-2 minutes as it's basically like blinking, and it shouldn't happen on faster PC's at all at least from my testing under linux.

Anyways the sensor I am stuck using is unfortunately the OPT101 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opt101.pdf) sensor. I looked into digital sensors, specifically the OPT4001 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opt4001.pdf) which has digital thresholds to trigger interrupts which would be ideal to offload all the ADC processing required, but unfortunately it's fastest conversion time is 600 us. Using the OPT101 with an ADC fast sampling I can get conversion times of around 40us which is 10x better at reducing jitter and improving responsiveness to dropped frames.
Given 120hz corresponds to 8.333 ms per frame, you can't really afford to have a jitter of 600us so the opt4001 was no good so I am stuck with the OPT101 which unfortunately costs $7-8 per unit and you need two for the device to work right.
The cheapest I found them was on aliexpress for $5 if you buy in bulk, but avoid anything under $5 as they are all scams (I had 3 different sellers sell me bad chips).

Anyways let me know your TV and your glasses type and I'll let you know then I can send you a board to help me test with and work on the software.
Hi Peter,

I've only basic soldering experience, but enough to play around with some simple Arduino/digispark stuff. I've a 144Hz Asus monitor and MSI laptop with 4k 120 Hz LCD screen. I have several pairs of 3D Vision glasses (first and second generation) as well as a 3DV compatible model. Would love to try out your board for 3D Vision and can hopefully contribute to the software and firmware. It's not a problem to pay for the board and shipping, just send me a PM.
Btw. I was planning to use a simple analog photo cell. Isn't that possible?

Best regards, Robert
hey Robert,

An anaolog photo-cell might work fine I should probably have a try to see if it does or doesn't. I went for one with an amplifier built in but it's worth a shot because it would be cheaper. I'll PM you shortly :)
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Robert256 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:59 am just send me a PM.
Hey Robert, I tried to send you a PM but it seems it's just sitting in the outbox. Not sure if that means you didn't read it yet or the forum is broken. Let me know if you didn't get it yet. Thanks!
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Bad news I have confirmed that 120hz BFI was removed from LG C2/G2 and LG C3/G3 OLED TV's so this technique will not work on them. Also i have not confirmed but according to information online all 2022 Sony OLED's also have had 120hz BFI removed. It looks like this was probably a pre-emptive attempt to engineering market segmentation for this years release of high refresh rate OLED gaming monitors. They probably didn't want the 48 inch C1 OLED with effect 310hz motion clarity competing with there overpriced Alienware 360hz OLED gaming monitors, as well as other OLED gaming monitors from ASUS :)

Good news, it works flawlessly on the LG C1 OLED and should also work on the LG CX OLED (I need to test this still) which have 41% pixel duty cycle on BFI Motion Pro HIgh.
On the Sony XBR 48a9s I have measured a 61% pixel duty cycle on Clearness high. So for the Sony you will get some ghosting/crosstalk unless you are viewing letterbox content like I was in my original tests.

Finally all the source code is up along with all design files licensed under creative commons non commercial license at https://github.com/open3doled/open-3d-oled
I will put the store up in afew weeks along with some youtube tutorial videos.
Robert256
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by Robert256 »

peter64 wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:14 pm
Robert256 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:59 am just send me a PM.
Hey Robert, I tried to send you a PM but it seems it's just sitting in the outbox. Not sure if that means you didn't read it yet or the forum is broken. Let me know if you didn't get it yet. Thanks!
Hi Peter, I was away from home for a few days, I got your message!
3DNovice
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by 3DNovice »

By chance, have you tried looking in the service menu of those TVs not supporting BFI?

I know that in days past, you could enable the feature sets of some higher end models on
entry level models by enabling them in manually the service mode.

For some TVs, a service remote from Amazon can be had for under $10.
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Someone with the latest G3 OLED 77 inch from LG checked for me and it's not in the service menu either, at least not that they could find.
Someone else told me that they have actually even tried flashing the C1 firmware to a C2 LG OLED and it didn't return the 120hz BFI feature.
So they speculated it's actually locked out from the panel itself, they didn't provide any further details though about how they tried to mod a C2 into and C1, but I expect it may not have updated the panel specific firmware or perhaps FPGA bitcode if there is an FPGA in there.
It's possible they stripped it out so they wouldn't compete with the OLED high refresh rate gaming monitors they are releasing now.
Also apparently it was a rarely used feature as not many people had graphics cards powerful enough to push a consistent 120hz at 4k which is required for 120hz BFI (at 4k at least) because BFI and VRR (or FreeSync/GSync) can't be enabled at the same time.
If anyone wants to do a second check though and finds something different please do let me know as I would be very pleased if it were there.
18000rpm
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by 18000rpm »

I have an 85" Sony X95K which supports BFI. I use it at 4K120P and when I change the Motionflow clearness setting (which is what Sony calls BFI) from 0 to 3 I can see the display get progressively darker so BFI should be working. I'm happy to help test but only have access to Windows 11 though. I also have tons of 3D content in .mk3d (SBS/OU), Blu-ray ISO rips etc.
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

18000rpm wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:52 pm I have an 85" Sony X95K which supports BFI. I use it at 4K120P and when I change the Motionflow clearness setting (which is what Sony calls BFI) from 0 to 3 I can see the display get progressively darker so BFI should be working. I'm happy to help test but only have access to Windows 11 though. I also have tons of 3D content in .mk3d (SBS/OU), Blu-ray ISO rips etc.

Hey I'de love for you to help me test it. I can probably send you a unit next week I'll PM you shortly with some questions regarding what you have available in the way of 3d glasses and the dimensions of your TV for the mount to attach the sensor unit to the TV. I just looked into your TV and it seems it's the latest microled TV and it seems it does indeed support 120hz BFI as your tests seem to have indicated. :) I'm super excited as this means there may actually be a new TV that works with this adapter and perhaps even a slew of future TV's that use microled will be compatible. I'm going to PM you now with the questions.

EDIT: Some absolutely fantastic stats and and analysis for how your TV backlight works over at https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/compare ... 1220/39007 under the sections regarding "Flicker Free" and "BFI".
It has a native 720hz flicker rate and then it kind of modulates that by the framerate so if your running 120hz content each frame is going to get 6 flickers it seems like.
You can see in this image what I mean for the X95L at 120hz BFI there are 5 humps that go in a bell curve for each frame and one frame that appears blank
https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/pY ... ormat=auto
They have a similar image for the X95K but it looks like they only captured the example at BFI 60hz not 120hz as well so it's harder to count the ridges.
https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/Ke ... ormat=auto
I can only assume that mini LED tv's probably still do a scrolling update just like LCD and OLED, but it's unclear if the PWM timing of the 720 pulses is locally coupled, as in the pulsing is timed to match when a specific horizontal portion of the screen updates or if it just generally flashes. I think regardless it should be possible to adjust the timing parameters to get it working, but it will be important that the opt101_block_signal_detection_delay parameter on the emitter be set to something much closer to 8333 us something like perhaps 8000 us. Otherwise the flashing of the backlight might prematurely trigger the emitter to think it already received the next frame and it was a duplicate frame.
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Hey everyone, I've had afew people PM me interested in helping testing, but it seems they are having difficulty to figure out how to read replies to PM's. If you are one of these people, please take a look at your inbox as I have replied to all PM's requesting beta test units up to this present point in time. Thanks!
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by peter64 »

Hey Guys,

I haven't updated this thread in a while.
Good news, I've got all types of glasses working better with the system.
We've got a plugin that works with PotPlayer for direct 3d bluray playback in conjuction with xreveal (or dvd fab keypass lite).
Also I've got 50 PCB's partially assembled and ready to send to anyone who wants to buy one and help with beta testing.

Regarding compatible displays the list is growing and thanks to RTINGs.com and there awesome reviews I have all the data I need to figure out which TV's will likely be compatible.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/table/138933
You require 120hz, it's best if they have 120hz BFI or a 120hz PWM backlight but not strictly necessary
If it's an LCD it requires a low response time in theory but the X95K has (80% 4.0 ms 100% 9.9 ms) and that seems to work fine.
If it's an OLED it needs to have low persistence BFI (<50% duty cycle) or you will gt lots of ghosting, this can be confirmed by looking at the BFI frequency picture.
Almost all the necessary data to make a judgement if a TV will be compatible is in that table, the only thing that isn't is whether the scanout speed is faster than the refresh rate.
But that can only be really confirmed by testing on the actual TV.
If you already own a TV though you may be able to gt some clues by looking for the vertical blanking interval in CRU (custom resolution utility) it will show you how long the VBI is.
If it has a reasonable large VBI (or you can increase the VBI to be more than 30% by adding a custom resolution like I did with the ViewSonic XG2431) then you can totally eliminate any ghosting.

During the beta testing period I am planning to sell the emitter and one pair of glasses for about $70 USD with untracked shipping (or $90 with tracked shipping).
If the unit does not work for you satisfactorily I will offer a full refund minus shipping if you pay to ship the unit back to me and it is in a similar condition to how I sent it to you.
So you will be out about $20 if you ship it by untracked air mail (the cost of shipping to you and shipping back to me).
If you decide to keep the unit and as a beta tester want an additional pair of glasses I plan to charge $30 for each pair + $6 for untracked shipping (or $20 for tracked shipping).

The unit does also work with any panasonic, sony and 3d vision glasses, but it works best with my custom firmware panasonic glasses or 3d vision glasses, as they resynchronize on dropped frames in (0 frames and 1-2 frames respectively).
Also my custom firmware glasses and 3d vision glasses phase adjust on every frame, instead of every few seconds like other glasses from other manufacturers.
This is useful to avoid any jitter at the top and bottom of screen, as things need to be timed really precisely when you don't have much vertical blanking interval to work with.

If you are interested please reply here and/or email support at open3doled dot com, I don't seem to get any email notifications from this forums PM (private messaging) system.
18000rpm
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on OLED displays that support BFI (black frame insertion at 120 hz)

Post by 18000rpm »

I'm one of the beta testers of @peter64's 3D system. I'm using a Sony 85-X95K mini LED TV and it really works! I almost can't believe I can finally watch my large 3D movies collection again.

Image quality is good with quite minimal flickering or drop-outs. Viewing requires either using Peter's custom video player, or PotPlayer. PotPlayer works great for me since that's what I use to play all my media including 3D Blu-ray ISOs.

Overall very pleased with the device.
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by peter64 »

Just another update I was able to get it working on 120hz OLED without BFI turned on. So this would apply to newer OLED's like C2/C3/C4 where they unceremoniously stripped out 120hz BFI from TV's to sell more gaming monitors.

The TLDR is that if you were just watching letterbox content in a totally black room I think it could be passable and only 2x darker than a c1/cx/g1/gx set with BFI. Also if you are happy scaling 16:9 content down so it only occupies 70% of the screen height that would also work.

The frame duration parameter in the config file dictates how many microseconds the shutter glasses are open for of the 8333 microsecond 120hz frametime. The issue is that the shutter glasses take about 2000 microseconds to fully open. And to totally eliminate the ghosting you need to set a frametime of 2000 microseconds. By comparison with BFI on you can set the frametime to 7000 microseconds. And with BFI on, the brightness is double for the time the screen is emitting, even though with BFI at max it actually only emits light for 3100 microseconds out of the 8333 microseconds available.

So if we just say 1 microsecond of full intensity light is 1 light unit and turning BFI on max, changes the light unit per time to 2.

With BFI set to max you can get 3100 x 2 light units because the 2000 microsecond shutter glass transition on time and 1000 microsecond transition off time falls entirely outside of the BFI pixel illumination time (when configured to give no ghosting). So that's a total of 7200 light units.

However with BFI off, configuring the timings for no ghosting you need to set frametime to 2000-2500 microseconds. With such a value you are only operating during the transition period where the LCD shutter glasses transition. So you effectively only get half of the total illumination (as it is 0 at the beginning of the transition and open at a the end) so you get about 1000 light units and you don't get the 2x brightness boosting that BFI does.

So it's basically 7x darker. Now where things change slightly is if you are happy to just use letterbox content. You can adjust the timings and probably get away with a frametime of 4000. You still won't get the 2x lightboost from using BFI set to max. But that will give you (2000/2+2000) light units so 3000 light units.

So I apologize for all the math, but it's a good exercise for me to explain in the future what kind of brightness levels one can expect using an OLED without 120hz BFI.

Here are some pictures to better illustrate the kind of results you can expect with BFI off.

The first three images (red/left and black/white) show the kind of ghosting to expect with more or less total image separation although there is a 6x brightness penalty. On the black/white image the white at the top and bottom is ghosting from the other frame.

https://i.postimg.cc/9XLsYt4x/redblue-b ... fi-off.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/L5Q742Kd/redblue-r ... fi-off.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/VLTT3fWn/blackwhit ... fi-off.jpg

The next image shows just the black/white image for the ghosting you get if you run at a 7000 microsecond frame duration.

https://i.postimg.cc/RVqys6Kv/blackwhit ... fi-off.jpg

I forgot to take a picture of the 4000 microsecond frame duration ghosting image, but it is somewhere between those two images. I believe it could have sufficient channel separation for letterbox content at only a 2x brightness penalty vs the C1/CX with BFI 120hz. I probably wouldn't bother using it for full frame 16:9 3d content though as the brightness penalty is too great, unless you are comfortable with a lot of ghosting at the top and bottom of screen. One aside, one of the beta testers is scaling the video content down using a scaling option so it only occupies 70% of the screen height for 16:9 content, so that is an option.
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by Robert256 »

Hi guys,

I have tested the Open3DOled device created by @peter64 and it is really cool!

I can watch 3D movies now on my laptop with 120Hz screen, using my old 3D Vision glasses. It only requires a small filter plugin in the movie player, and doesn't require any special video driver.

In short, it is awesome to be able to watch 3D movies on a standard laptop with the newest video drivers!

The sensors and infrared leds cover only a very small part of your screen, and it sends the corresponding IR pulses to your 3D shutter glasses. It works on standard LCD screens too, so not only on Oled displays (which the name might suggest).
When I bought my laptop a few years ago, I especially opted for a 120Hz version, hoping that it once would support 3D, and now it does!

Here is a closeup photograph of the current version (the total width of the sensors is about 30 mm):

Image
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by jandy123 »

Impressive work @peter64 !!!

I've been also working towards a similar outcome, albeit based on software sync, building up upon previous work
https://github.com/lukis101/3DVisionAVR. I've ported the AVR code above to a rpi2040 and modified sView https://www.sview.ru/en/download/ to support the USB dongle inspired also by https://github.com/eruffaldi/libnvstusb. Basically I use OpenGL GLX extensions (similar extensions are also available for windows, although I do not care) to wait for vsync sync and flip the eyes via usb->rpi2040->IR.

Results are decent, on an lcd gaming laptop screen (lenovo Y540). Ghosting and some frame tearing do kick in though. The worst is ghosting, for which I also applied a software "deghosting" method. Btw., in case you are not aware, there is an active discord group here: https://discord.gg/jCegfF98 . I posted some stuff there in the #3d-monitors section. Would be great if you could join also there to be able to chit-chat and learn from your experiences. In case you are not aware there is another initiative based on software sync, see Rekindle/holoshader (Universal 3d player) in the android market. They also use a custom player and a proprietary usb dongle to drive DLP IR glasses, as far as I can tell.

In the long run, I'm planning to build your hardware and compare the two approaches: pure software sync vs your hybrid approach.

I also have a quick question. My favorite IR glasses (among also 3d vision, sony, samsung 2010) are Panasonic TY-EW3D2MA, and as far as I can tell from your posts, you built a custom firmware for those(?) glasses. Could you share it? Is it difficult to flash your custom fw on the glasses? What is the benefit? Can we sync to frequencies lower than 100Hz? Albeit accepting flickering, etc.

Could you/anyone also post a picture of the schematics? Thanks in advance!

Again, great work and waiting for your reaction!
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by peter64 »

jandy123 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:17 am Impressive work @peter64 !!!

I've been also working towards a similar outcome, albeit based on software sync, building up upon previous work
https://github.com/lukis101/3DVisionAVR. I've ported the AVR code above to a rpi2040 and modified sView https://www.sview.ru/en/download/ to support the USB dongle inspired also by https://github.com/eruffaldi/libnvstusb. Basically I use OpenGL GLX extensions (similar extensions are also available for windows, although I do not care) to wait for vsync sync and flip the eyes via usb->rpi2040->IR.

Results are decent, on an lcd gaming laptop screen (lenovo Y540). Ghosting and some frame tearing do kick in though. The worst is ghosting, for which I also applied a software "deghosting" method. Btw., in case you are not aware, there is an active discord group here: https://discord.gg/jCegfF98 . I posted some stuff there in the #3d-monitors section. Would be great if you could join also there to be able to chit-chat and learn from your experiences. In case you are not aware there is another initiative based on software sync, see Rekindle/holoshader (Universal 3d player) in the android market. They also use a custom player and a proprietary usb dongle to drive DLP IR glasses, as far as I can tell.

In the long run, I'm planning to build your hardware and compare the two approaches: pure software sync vs your hybrid approach.

I also have a quick question. My favorite IR glasses (among also 3d vision, sony, samsung 2010) are Panasonic TY-EW3D2MA, and as far as I can tell from your posts, you built a custom firmware for those(?) glasses. Could you share it? Is it difficult to flash your custom fw on the glasses? What is the benefit? Can we sync to frequencies lower than 100Hz? Albeit accepting flickering, etc.

Could you/anyone also post a picture of the schematics? Thanks in advance!

Again, great work and waiting for your reaction!
Hey @jandy123,

Thanks for your feedback. I often wondered how they were doing the sync was working with OpenGL on such units. I may attempt something similar in the future.
But honestly not having to rely on OpenGL for sync data is very handy because it lets one use players like PotPlayer which has great support for digital audio passthrough and many options.
For laptop screens I really suggest you look into VFB (vertical frame blanking) and QFT (quick frame transport) if you use CRU (custom resolution utility) and you increase the front and back porch timings to be a larger portion of the screen refresh cycle (by increasing the pixel clock rate relatively) you can get a larger period of time on each screen refresh where the screen is static. This helps eliminate and reduce ghosting. On my ViewSonic XG2431 test monitor I can totally eliminate ghosting if I run at 120hz with a pixel clock of anything about 360mhz.
All the hardware and software designs for my system are available on github https://github.com/open3doled/open-3d-oled
The only thing I am choosing not to release yet is the custom Panasonic Glasses firmware.
Like you My most prefered glasses are the TY-EW3D2MA and the TY-EW3D3MA (as I was able to make the custom firmware to eliminate flicker on dropped frames and also provide fast resync to compensate for screen jitter).
I plan on doing a kickstarter in the near future once I can get afew more beta testers to test on different displays. After the kickstarter is complete I will be happy to release the Panasonic custom glasses firmware and source code.
The reason I am choosing not to release it yet is because I've bought about 250 pairs of glasses used over the last year, and I need to recoup some of my expenses on them, as well as some of the expenses on beta PCB's and such.
Once the kickstarter is complete I will be happy to release the binaries and source code as well as flashing instructions.
I'll hope on your discord later today and provide more information for you I look forward to chatting :)
I would be so happy if there was a way to use this technology with Geo11 or something via software pageflipping, but there is no software pageflipping for any of the 3d gaming systems I'm aware of.
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by jandy123 »

I often wondered how they were doing the sync was working with OpenGL on such units. I may attempt something similar in the future.
nvstusb (link above) is very useful for understanding how it's done.
But honestly not having to rely on OpenGL for sync data is very handy because it lets one use players like PotPlayer which has great support for digital audio passthrough and many options.
PotPlayer is windows only, unfortunately. No option here...
For laptop screens I really suggest you look into VFB (vertical frame blanking) and QFT (quick frame transport) if you use CRU (custom resolution utility) and you increase the front and back porch timings to be a larger portion of the screen refresh cycle (by increasing the pixel clock rate relatively) you can get a larger period of time on each screen refresh where the screen is static. This helps eliminate and reduce ghosting. On my ViewSonic XG2431 test monitor I can totally eliminate ghosting if I run at 120hz with a pixel clock of anything about 360mhz.]
Thanks a lot for this info! I've been struggling with ghosting in the upper part of the screen. Any clue how I can cure that? The glass opening time is now set to 4ms (decent tradeoff between brightness and ghosting), screen refresh rate should be 1ms on paper, so cannot really explain what's going on. I can play with delays, etc. in the firmware, but the only thing I can achieve is shifting up or down the ghosted portion of the screen... Would be great if you could share any thoughts on this. Maybe the discord channel is handier...


My laptop screen supports 144Hz natively, so maybe if I lower to 100Hz, I can improve this by using QFT, as I understand from reading the info you posted regarding ViewSonic XG2431. I'm planning to get this cheap 240Hz screen AOC C27G2ZU. Any idea if that one should/could work?

I understand the argument about the glasses. No worries, I can wait :). And good luck with your initiative. Is great that 3d vision/stereo is not dead... At some stage, I will also share my own take on synching two similar mobile phones for 3D photos. Video recording has been also done in android, btw.

Regarding gaming, sure there is support for 3d vision which does exactly software flipping based on direct3d. In windows, direct3d offers a similar API to block waiting for vsync. Android also has a callback telling you what the offset is w.r.t the last vsync time when the callback is called, so one can plan ahead for the next vsync. So, in that sense this software sync is quite portable...

Thanks for input!
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by peter64 »

Hey @jandy123,

I sent you a PM on discord too so feel free to message me there, but I will reply here for now :)
I made my custom 3dplayer in my github repository so feel free to look at that, it's based on gstreamer and coded entirely in python, it builds on ubuntu/debian and mingw64/windows.
I expect it will work on macos too but I have no way to test it. It should be relatively simple to hook into the opengl calls from the python opengl library and use my player if you want too.
It has lots of commands for adjusting the timing parameters on my emitter (I could also include a serial command based on the opengl gx stuff to trigger the page flip once I checkout the examples when I have a chance)

So for ghosting it depends on the display tech.
If you are working with an OLED, the tradeoff you need to make is between "vignetting" darkness at the top and bottom of the screen. And ghosting at the top and bottom of the screen. The reason for this is OLED updates kinda like a rolling shutter with fixed persistence interval controlled by BFI settings.
If you are working with an LCD monitor it should theoretically be possible to eliminate ghosting entirely provided you get the timing right. If you are getting ghosting at the top of the screen it can normally be remedied by one of two things. 1) starting opening the shutter glasses later, 2) closing the shutter glasses earlier. If you make the window of time the shutter glasses is open short enough, then you set the frame delay properly you should be able to eliminate almost all ghosting provided your vertical blanking interval is long enough. (which may be your issue).

So as you say "lower to 100Hz, I can improve this by using QFT, as I understand from reading the info you posted regarding ViewSonic XG2431" this is exactly the right idea!
My laptop only supports HDMI pixel clocks up to 299 Mhz so I can't use 360Mhz pixel clock to eliminate ghosting at 120hz.
So if I am using my laptop I set the refresh rate to 90 hz on the glasses and then I make the vertical blanking interval take up something like 30% of the frame period.
The specific timings I was using are in this directory.
https://github.com/open3doled/open-3d-o ... nic_xg2431
The file explaining the specifics is this one.
https://github.com/open3doled/open-3d-o ... nsport.txt
Here is are three different examples showing different amounts of extra vertical blanking time.

4) 299.000MHz @ 120hz (13.6% blanking)
xrandr --newmode "1920x1080_120.00_QFT" 299.00 1920 1943 1975 2030 1080 1084 1089 1227 +hsync +vsync
xrandr --addmode HDMI-0 "1920x1080_120.00_QFT"

6) 299.000MHz @ 90hz (51.5% blanking)
xrandr --newmode "1920x1080_90.00_QFT" 299.00 1920 1943 1975 2030 1080 1084 1089 1636 +hsync +vsync
xrandr --addmode HDMI-0 "1920x1080_90.00_QFT"

3) 594 MHz Mhz @ 120hz (125.7% blanking) B
xrandr --newmode "1920x1080_120.00_QFT" 594.00 1920 1943 1975 2030 1080 1084 1089 2438 +hsync +vsync
xrandr --addmode HDMI-0 "1920x1080_120.00_QFT"

The glasses take about 1.5 ms to fully open and 1 ms to fully close.
So if you are working with a 51% blanking interval you have it updating for like 66% of the time and not updating for 33%. (it's a little better than this as there is some other buffer built in).
But anyways this means that if you transition the glasses so they are fully open for 33% of the time they will be open for about 3 ms of the available 8.333 ms for each frame.
If you still get ghosting need to further delay when they open and close them sooner. But given the VBI is about 3 ms and the glasses take 1.5ms to open and 1ms to close you are gauranteed zero ghosting but you could only open them for like 0.5ms.
When you change to a 125% VBI you now have a window of 4.7 ms where the screen shouldn't be updating (except for G2G pixel transitions)
This means you are gauranteed around 2.5 ms of zero ghosting when the glasses can be fully open. But given you start opening them sooner and closing them later you normally can get about half the screen brightness.
If you have a monitor with strobe backlight like the XG2431 and the strobe phase can be properly adjusted, you can get 100% brightness with zero ghosting 3d.
The only thing I don't know is if these custom monitor modes are available on many monitors or if they prevent you from performing such hacks.

Also great advice regarding the software page flipping being possible. It's more the issue that no one supports it currently. I seem to recall iz3d's original driver writer kinddragon supported software pageflipping before his drivers were bought by IZ3D. It would be cool if I could test them on an old system. The main issue with software pageflipping is that I was unable to tell when there was a dropped frame from teh software side to flip left and right eyes back. This is why I resorted to coding the eye for each frame into the video feed and using sensors, it is gauranteed foolproof. I suppose you could track the vsyncs to see if any are missed, but when I tried to do something like this it didn't seem to work right and still ended up with eyes flipping.
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by jandy123 »

Thanks for the very useful info!

I played with options 1) and 2) above and tuned as much as I could... Playing with timings (option 1) simply changes the vertical position of the ghosted region... My suspicion is that the IPS panel is not fast enough, so that translates into short vertical blanking interval (? not sure about this).

So, I will try the to see if I can use the QFT stuff.
jandy123
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by jandy123 »

I've tested Open3DOled on two gaming laptops: lenovo legio Y740-15ICHg, IPS screen at 144Hz and a new ASUS Zephyrus GU605MZ with OLED screen at 240 Hz. Results are good (lenovo) and excellent (asus) !

For the lenovo, I had to create a custom resolution 1920x1080 @100Hz with QFT to minimize ghosting; detailed info can be found on the github page; thanks a lot again... With this, after proper calibration, I've got quite good results, although ghosting may create some issues, when the 3d disparity is large in a bunch of scenes of a 3D movie.

On the asus laptop, results are just excellent. All that I needed to do is calibrate open3doled, switch to the nvidia card and lower the refresh rate to 120Hz, via a custom resolution; no need for QFT... This resulted in zero ghosting and no eye jitter....

I think that any decent gaming laptop should do just fine, also for watching 3d photos/movies, which is great!

Keep up the good work Peter!

=====

If anyone needs my calibration files for the laptops above, let know here.
beyondterror
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by beyondterror »

I would like to get this emitter and test it out, any help?
peter64
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by peter64 »

Hey beyondterror, Sorry for my late response. Can you mention your make and model of TV so I can try to assess if it will be compatible? Also you can email support at open3doled dot com and I can respond to you more quickly there. Thanks!
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by Lillian »

Make sure to source high-definition 3D content and consider using software like Open3DOLED for improved playback options. Proper calibration of your display settings will also help optimize your viewing experience for immersive 3D effects. https://polytrackgame.com
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Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by bearkoolboy »

peter64 wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:13 am Hey Guys,

Regarding compatible displays the list is growing and thanks to RTINGs.com and there awesome reviews I have all the data I need to figure out which TV's will likely be compatible.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/table/138933
You require 120hz, it's best if they have 120hz BFI or a 120hz PWM backlight but not strictly necessary
If it's an LCD it requires a low response time in theory but the X95K has (80% 4.0 ms 100% 9.9 ms) and that seems to work fine.
If it's an OLED it needs to have low persistence BFI (<50% duty cycle) or you will gt lots of ghosting, this can be confirmed by looking at the BFI frequency picture.
Almost all the necessary data to make a judgement if a TV will be compatible is in that table, the only thing that isn't is whether the scanout speed is faster than the refresh rate.
But that can only be really confirmed by testing on the actual TV.
If you already own a TV though you may be able to gt some clues by looking for the vertical blanking interval in CRU (custom resolution utility) it will show you how long the VBI is.
If it has a reasonable large VBI (or you can increase the VBI to be more than 30% by adding a custom resolution like I did with the ViewSonic XG2431) then you can totally eliminate any ghosting.

During the beta testing period I am planning to sell the emitter and one pair of M size glasses for $100 with tracked international shipping. (additional glasses are $40 per pair of M size or $30 per pair of S size glasses)
If the unit does not work for you satisfactorily I will offer a full refund minus shipping if you pay to ship the unit back to me and it is in a similar condition to how I sent it to you.
So you will be out about $20 if you ship it by untracked air mail (the cost of shipping to you and shipping back to me).
If later you want additional glasses they will be $40 for each pair of M size + $30 for each pair of S size + $20 for tracked internally shipping.

The unit does also work with any panasonic, sony and 3d vision glasses, but it works best with my custom firmware panasonic glasses or 3d vision glasses, as they resynchronize on dropped frames in (0 frames and 1-2 frames respectively).
Also my custom firmware glasses and 3d vision glasses phase adjust on every frame, instead of every few seconds like other glasses from other manufacturers.
This is useful to avoid any jitter at the top and bottom of screen, as things need to be timed really precisely when you don't have much vertical blanking interval to work with.

If you are interested please reply here and/or email support at open3doled dot com, I don't seem to get any email notifications from this forums PM (private messaging) system.

If you are curious how the system works take a look at the design and source code at https://github.com/open3doled/open-3d-oled
I am very interested in this, but what I am most curious about is whether it supports 3D games. There are no new 3D TVs available now
peter64
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 12:17 am

Re: System for watching 3d movies on 120hz LCD/OLED OLED displays/TVs (BFI improves quality) Open3DOLED

Post by peter64 »

bearkoolboy wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:32 pm ...
I am very interested in this, but what I am most curious about is whether it supports 3D games. There are no new 3D TVs available now
bearkoolboy,

For games it's a bit difficult, You really have two options that are discussed elsewhere on this forum

If you have a 20 series nvidia card or earlier, there are ways to get 3d vision working on basically any TV.
If you use custom timing parameters for nvidia 3d vision emitter you can also get the timing pretty good.
Also if you use the project at 3DVisionAVR, they have an open source hardware and software design that will let you send IR sync signals to other brands of glasses (so you don't need a 3d vision kit).
My understanding is that this is somewhat difficult to setup but not too bad.

The other alternative is using a projector/TV that supports 3d side-by-side input in combination with geo-11 or an emulator game that supports native side-by-side output.

In terms of getting my stuff working with geo-11, it probably isn't going to happen without additional hardware.
I was working on getting a rock pi 5b+ to work as a side-by-side to frame sequential converter supporting 1080p 120hz, but I got sidetracked.
Also for gaming this probably wouldn't be ideal as I suspect the video capture -> reformat -> output alone would result in a delay of 50+ ms which would be latency.
Most of the FPGA based converts are limited to 720p at 120hz. The only one I know that is still for sale is HD Fury with special 3d firmware.

Also additionally to converting side-by-side to frame sequential I need to include the trigger boxes.
I could do this on my own system, but I suspect the FPGA based systems like HD Fury wouldn't be able to support the trigger boxes.
But if you were going to buy HD Fury and got the 720p route you wouldn't really have any need for my system.

I'm aiming my system more at people who want to watch movies on TV's as an affordable option.
For gaming you are best to probably buy a old nvidia 20 series card then buy the 3d vision kit (or build an emitter based on 3dVisionAVR) as then you will be able to use both 3d vision and geo-11 as I understand it on basically any TV (with varying degrees of success based on pixel response time and the ability to increase your vertical blanking interval to reduce ghosting.

Hope this helps!
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