To the Power of 3

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Neil
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To the Power of 3

Post by Neil »

As an advocacy group, what measures can the MTBS community take to appeal to traditional 2D gamers to help build our industry leverage?

If we did want to demonstrate demand for modern S-3D products, how can we do that with the participation of the much larger traditional 2D audience? What core messages do you think would be most attractive to them?

Regards,
Neil

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Post by crim3 »

Maybe it's a bad idea to give too much expectations. An attitude like "try this and tell me what you think" could be better than "you have to try this, it's unbelievable, you can see this and that and feel like you are in there..."

It's not a very specific answer, but I thought that could fit in this thread.

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Post by LukePC1 »

'Have you ever been in a 3D movie? Imagine having a small/cheap one at home... Fight for that dream at MTBS3d.com'

what about that? I think there are a lot of people who have been to a 3D cinema and don't know, that they actually could get it for their home, too :roll:
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Post by Ezzelin »

I'm not quite sure about what this small community can do, but for stereo 3d to succeed, a lot of things need to change. For one, all the marketing I've ever seen for stereo 3d looks ridiculous. It's always some dumb looking kid with his mouth open and a goofy look on his face. Until companies start marketing this as a style-conscious product, along the lines of an iPod or a Wii, stereo 3d will never succeed. It must be shown that adults can enjoy stereo 3d, not just kids looking for latest whiz-bang gadget. After all, it's the adults that own the pocket book. iZ3D is so far the only company I've seen do an alright job of marketing stereo 3d, but until the price comes down for their solution, it won't matter for stereo 3d in general. They will stay a niche at that price, which is sad, because they are currently the best hope we have.

That being said, the other main thing preventing stereo 3d from succeeding is that there is no venter-neutral and platform-agnostic API for coding stereo 3d natively into a game. If MTBS could lobby the OpenGL group, or another standards body or developer such as iZ3D, to create a modern, simple for the end-user, easy to implement stereo 3d specification/standard much like sound or input, developers would actually be able to code for and test their games with stereo 3d. Until then, there's no way for any developer to support stereo 3d, and without developers marketing stereo 3d as a feature, it will not succeed. Once one good game comes out that utilizes stereo 3d as a feature, utilizes it well, and markets a stylish and inexpensive way into stereo 3d, I believe that public perception could turn around and the avalanche could start rolling downhill. Otherwise, we'll just be stuck with the overwhelmingly bad perception of stereo 3d among the general public we've had for years.

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Post by pixel67 »

LukePC1 brings up a very valid point. Right now one of the entry points for S3D for the average consumer is in the 3D Movie market. Just think about all the money that is currently being spent, or has been spent, to advertise the latest 3D movies! Now imagine a 30 second ad at the beginning of each movie, or even your most recently purchased game for that matter, like "Go to xyz.com and Bring the 3D experience home with you!", or something to that effect. People WILL remember that! But... It can't be the past approach of "buy all the ingredients on this grocery list, visit xyz forum to troubleshoot, and you might be able to get it to work" approach. It needs to be a more "plug and play" solution like IZ3D, Zalman/Nvidia, Samung/DDD, Vuzix, etc.

This industry is finally making a turn for the better and I think Neil has done a great job capturing the essence of this change. Nvidia/CRT was only the beginning... We need to keep it from being the end by looking past what ever current solution we are personally using to game in S3D and simply find a marketable answer to Neil's earlier question...

How can S3D gain visibility to the 72% of US Citizens that play 2D games?

Very nice article, Neil!
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Post by Neil »

Hello everyone!

I'm glad you all responded as well as you did to my editorial. I was worried I'd get lynched!

This is our next challenge, and I'm hopeful you are up to the task. All my interviewees like to say "content is king", and that's true for us as well. More content means more material to be picked up by search engines, more material that can be submitted to Digg, more to talk about, and most importantly, a better education resource for 2D gamers to learn about S-3D.

When we redesigned the website, one of our primary goals was to create a format that would give MTBS members the opportunity to submit articles to help build the community.

Would any of our members like to contribute news, reviews, and editorial pieces to help contribute to the community? It's important that you have a strong command of the English language, and you are willing to review your games using either the iZ3D and/or modern NVIDIA drivers.

Your fellow members can then disseminate these reviews via Digg, Slashdot, and cross-linking to help grow S-3D awareness.

Please PM me if interested.

Regards,
Neil
Last edited by Neil on Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Likay »

This is actually tricky. People need to see the phenomena, both to understand and to feel the WOAAAAH of it. I guess the only thing is to show people.
The 3d as an observed phenomena?. :D I have personal experience of seeing my friends watching 3d-gaming for the first time! :D. Well, some people really gets hooked on it but unfortunately today it's either too tricky or too expensive to have decent 3d. And yes: I welcome all other stereodevelopers today since the hardware demands isn't so narrow anymore thus with nvidia drivers. No hate here: Just my opinion.

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Post by CarlKenner »

IT IS NOT COMPLETELY FALSE!
YOU ARE TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON NVIDIA AND YOUR GRAPHICS CARD MANUFACTURERS TO SUPPLY DRIVERS.

You are under the delusion that anyone can write a stereoscopic 3D driver because iZ3D supposedly did so.

You could not be more wrong. iZ3D can NEVER make a stereoscopic 3D driver that does what the nvidia stereoscopic driver does.

iZ3D works by sending a different image to two different monitors. Anyone can do that. It is a trivial problem.

But because computers with two VGA ports used to be extremely rare (I don't have one), most existing stereoscopic products don't work that way.

Don't get me wrong, I am writing a stereoscopic 3D driver... but it will not support ddc vga glasses or page flipping stereoscopic modes. (Well I'll try to do page flipping, but it won't work reliably). Because only the graphics driver can do that. And that rules out shutter glasses and popular HMDs.
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Post by CarlKenner »

Ezzelin wrote:That being said, the other main thing preventing stereo 3d from succeeding is that there is no venter-neutral and platform-agnostic API for coding stereo 3d natively into a game. If MTBS could lobby the OpenGL group, or another standards body or developer such as iZ3D, to create a modern, simple for the end-user, easy to implement stereo 3d specification/standard much like sound or input, developers would actually be able to code for and test their games with stereo 3d.
Ezzelin is wrong. There already IS a vender-neutral, platform-agnostic API for coding stereo 3d natively into a game. OpenGL already has a function glDrawBuffer(GL_BACK_LEFT), glDrawBuffer(GL_BACK_RIGHT) for drawing to the left and right views.

Unfortunately, the fact that it is platform-agnostic is part of the problem. It is seen as being for business applications, not games. Many businesses absolutely NEED stereoscopic 3D, because they need to manipulate and visualise complex 3D structures like molecules. So graphics card manufacturers decided to cripple their cards and drivers to not support this standard API unless customers pay thousands of dollars for their high end cards. There is no technical reason for it, they just want more money.

I can try and make a stereoscopic driver that supports this API.
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Winning over the 2d gaming crowd

Post by fsp48 »

I would love to see steroscopic aka S3D be as common place as the Ipod. I think the cost of the tech is still a factor to deal with to get the regular 2d or casual gamer to get in on it. This with the not so plug and play aspect of getting it to work...many gamers don't want to bother having to work at getting through a big setup just to get S3D. Most people just don't want to "WORK" when it comes time to kick back and play a video game. Another possible problem is the fact that consoles are starting to or have always had the spotlight. What needs to happen for the masses to embrace the whole idea of S3D gaming is for it to really be embraced by one or all of the big 3 console makers. For example, I believe the whole idea of motion based controllers has been around for years but it took the big leap from Nintendo to give it the mass exposure and appeal.

Something to look at would be to compile some key numbers. What are the numbers of S3D movie goers in relation to also being gamers? I think the idea of marketing stereo gaming at one of these movies would be a key to mass appeal. This would be the best time and place to play a game scene clip to give people the best view of what it looks like to game that way. The S3D in Beowulf was awesome and to see a movie clip from a game on that screen would be the best way to advertise the newest tech. This will let people see how good home gaming can be these day using polarized technology that is now available.

I tend to openly embrace all the gadgets and tech and put in the extra effort to make the most of it or settle for dealing with workarounds. My gamer friends are not that diehard when it comes to this. One in particular has a rather bad memory of the early shutter glasses that came with Nvidia cards, stating "It was cool for about 10 minutes but gave me a headache". This seems to be a hurdle to get over as well. Right now I ended up sending back my newly purchased shutter glasses as there is just no support anymore. It's too bad because now that the hardware is so much more powerfull and can probably work the best it ever could if you are using CRTs... although I am probably one of the few still gaming on CRTs.

I have been using the anaglyph method now available as it works pretty well with my triple head setup. I really need to get some of the better optical quality glasses as my old Sports illustrated paper glasses are probably not the greatest for my eyes at this point. But they do work and really let you get a better idea of how much S3D adds to the experience. The color deprivation is the main problem with anaglyph though which is why I would like to move toward the polarized solution soon.

The bottom line is exposure in mainstream media. Advertise the tech with previews at movies and have demos running at places like best buy and Micro-Center in particular as they have a dedicated Gaming Area in the store now...which does have gaming PCs set up to play on vs. just consoles like Best Buy.

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Post by Silversurfer »

fsp48, you make your points very well.

I have a lot of friends (20 plus) who I would consider technology minded and also avid gamers and movie enthusiasts, who range from teenagers to senior citizens who embrace all innovative technology gadgets. All of them have multiple PC’s for various purposes including high-end capable gaming / multimedia kit along with at least two of the three major consoles. But I can't get even one of them to consider buying a 3-D display at the current price point and evolution. This might have something to do with the fact that I, as the 3-D evangelist amongst them have not decided myself which 3-D display technology will warrant investing in, which might come as a surprise to most of you after my contributions to this forum. I still need to know I will not be left high and dry with a £999 (after import from the States) display that gets overtaken by another display, so I will wait a little longer to join you early investors/adopters.

Having said this I feel this year’s many announcements already, in this (thank you Neil for your hard work) and other forums /blogs from the major players like the display manufacturers and Hollywood of the release of 30 plus movies in the next year or so means there is a possible turning point imminent. If only the movie and games industry has the imagination to see the possibilities of investing in fully advertising the 3-D features in movies and more games like Unreal Tournament 3 or Beowulf in 3-D , which I think was a missed opportunity even without the installed user base of millions 3-D enabled displays. Just like the Nintendo Wii, Blu- Ray and even the ill-fated HD DVD that went before it, people will buy the hardware to play back the content if they feel they are missing out on something worthwhile.

I suppose it's the old adage, "which comes first the chicken or the egg", why would Hollywood and the games industry invest their time and effort producing content if there isn't an installed user base of enthusiastic users with the hardware to appreciate it in their homes. However more theatres are said to be converting to 3-D technology so I guess we need to keep the faith a little bit longer and keep on spreading the word. in the meantime I continue to scroll the Interweb for any nuggets that pertain to this exciting period in the evolution of the 3-D technology industry and hope to join you soon as a hardware certified fully paid-up member :).
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Post by Welder »

Freke1 wrote:The iZ3D gets noticed:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi ... 6#p2029546
Owch!

"I would have to actually see this thing in person but even then I doubt I would ever buy it until the technology became mainstream and actually worth a damn. As it stands now, it only looks like an overpriced piece of ****, and I can't imagine that the detail would be that great on games... maybe movies though."

How do people say such things without even trying it. Someone should educate them about 3D in games :)

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Post by nubie »

Well that was a standard knee-jerk, the one that really pissed me off was this:
EDIT: link works now - it seems like a waste of money at the mo, i'd prob buy one when everysingle thing is written as 3D and not 2D. then it'll look good.
Hmm, can anyone tell me the last game that WASN'T written in 3D?

This guy just seems like he enjoys making a complete ass of himself.
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Post by yuriythebest »

Neil your article was awesome I agreed 100%

regarding the bf2 thread- yes, their reactions may seem disgusting to us, yes that's the word- disgusting. however they're also completely understandable. If I were to go to some forum and say stuff like

"that site offers great pills that fight death so you'll never die"

or

"get a free ipod"

those threads would be treated in a similar fashion, mainly because the communities that will watch them (even this one) will instantly think that if it goes against common knowledge that "computer screens are flat, stereoscopic 3d is all about anaglyph glasses and 70's movies" then it must be wrong somehow. single forum threads cannot combat this, and at the moment the only company that can change this is iz3d. Not nvidia, microsoft, or ati- I'm sure they could if they were bothered, but they won't. If iz3d gains popularity, launched add campaigns on popular sites, appears on tv adds, then we will see stereoscopic gaming in every home, and only then will the rest follow cause otherwise they will be obsolete.

also, as is shown in the video on Freke1's homepage- put plenty of stereoscopic screens in the windows of shops all around town, that'll have people demanding stereoscopy in notime

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Post by Tril »

yuriythebest1 wrote:at the moment the only company that can change this is iz3d.
I agree but they are not alone. I'm currently also betting on Mitsubishi for their 3D-Ready HDTVs. They are not targetting the exact same crowd as iZ3D. They are targetting people that want a BIG screen even if it's more expensive. We might eventually get a Mitsubishi compatible S3D driver from iZ3D. You never know what the future holds.

They're building awareness by showing up their 3D-Ready HDTVs at retail and on their mobile showroom. They're the first to do that as far as I know and I support that.

I was talking about the following from the interview between Neil and David Naranjo :
17. Of the units that have been sold, what percentage of customers are aware that they own an S-3D solution? Do you think this was an influential component of their buying decision? Why or why not?

We have promoted the 3D-Ready capability of our TVs at retail as well as on our Mobile Showroom that is traveling across the US. All consumers that we have surveyed are anxious to have 3D content for the home.
Honestly, they're probably not advertising the 3D-Ready models at every place where you can buy them (Best Buy, Circuit City, COMPUSA, etc) but if they're really doing it in some places, it's a start.
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Post by pixel67 »

Tril wrote: They're the first to do that as far as I know and I support that.
I thought Samsung was the first?
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Post by Tril »

You're right about Samsung being the first getting a DLP 3D-Ready HDTV out (I think) but I don't think that Samsung is advertising the 3D-Ready feature at the place where you buy the HDTV and I don't think they have a mobile showroom for showing off their 3D-Ready feature either.
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Post by pixel67 »

gotcha. Sorry, misunderstood. You are correct in that they don't advertise them in the stores at all, which really amazes me. Lets see, hire a guy at 50k a year and his job is to travel to all of the Best Buys in the US. In tow he has PC running the latest and greatest and he showcases the sets capabilities at 1 store each week. Each HDTV set costs ~ 2,000 so they would only need to sell an additional 50 sets in order to break even assuming a 50% profit margin on each set (not including travel costs). Heck, that would be a cool job!
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