Dev Kit 2 Released!

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

cgp44 wrote: The reason I call low persistence a buzz word is because in many in the games I'm not moving a hell of a lot, that is my head is not wobbling around.
I suppose if you do get a bit sick you stop wobbling your head around.
I will see.
Keeping your head still is pointless in a 360 degree world. If you keep your head still then take off your HMD and sit close to your big monitor.

The question is: Do you keep your head still in the real world? No, you look round and that my friend is true VR if you don't move your head you don't need VR.

So yes we do need Low Persistence, and low latency and designed for VR environment.

Sounds like you're changing your stance now that you've been called out.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Fredz »

Mystify wrote:Also, then pentile displays were shown to have truer colors than other displays when the phones were put into movie mode.
Do you have a link for this ? Every review I've seen shows that OLED is a bit inferior to LCD on mobile phones in color accuracy. Not that OLED is inherently inferior in this regard, it IS superior, but just not on mobile phones at this time.
cgp44 wrote:Its just that low persistence is their latest buzz word and they publicised it massively.
They weren't even convinced it was important (and neither John Carmack) until Valve showed them, weird to say it's their "latest buzz word".
cgp44 wrote:The reason I call low persistence a buzz word is because in many
in the games I'm not moving a hell of a lot, that is my head is not wobbling around.
You don't need to move your head to benefit from low-persistence, only your eyes. Never heard about LightBoost and why it's so popular amongst gamers for standard 2D gaming ?

You are right that PenTile is inferior to standard RGB-RGB stripe (1/3 fewer pixels), but at $599 for the RiftUP! vs $350 for the DK2 I don't think the 1/3 more pixels is enough of an improvement for most people. And you loose perfect blacks/infinite contrast and low-persistence.

The RiftUP! is a nice alternative, but it would be much more appealing with 2560x1440 panels.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

Wait for a manufactured RiftUP! at $259 which includes shipping ($50).
By manufacturing is simply the robotic placement of smd
chips on the board. This is painstakingly slow doing by hand.
I think the $599 at two times the above price is just going for those
whom such money is nothing for being first.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

Fredz wrote:
Mystify wrote:Also, then pentile displays were shown to have truer colors than other displays when the phones were put into movie mode.
Do you have a link for this ? Every review I've seen shows that OLED is a bit inferior to LCD on mobile phones in color accuracy. Not that OLED is inherently inferior in this regard, it IS superior, but just not on mobile phones at this time.
I am trying to dig up what I was looking at earlier, but I can't find it. That point was just an assertion by someone posting in a discussion, so they may have been incorrect.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

V8Griff wrote: Keeping your head still is pointless in a 360 degree world. If you keep your head still then take off your HMD and sit close to your big monitor.
Oh this is just so off base. You can move your head, just not continual wobbling. Low persistence
stuff is momentary phenomena. This is why I am sceptical. Oculus boys do exaggerate sometimes.
Remember the jaw dropping. Nice theatrics.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

@V8Griff - good point about the DK2 - the Oc guys did try to warn non-developers off buying it as they did with the DK1.

@cgp44 / Mystify, sorry, but I didn't mean to start a whole heated debate about this, I was merely asking if cgp44 was invested in the RiftUP! thing directly, as Mystify seemed convinced.

That's the great thing about this forum though, we still manage to have good in-depth and intelligent discussions on here without resorting to Reddit style attacks. :p
(not the fault of Reddit itself, but it tends to attract it's fair share of trolls for some reason.)

OK, so the Pentile display isn't perfect, but like others have said, it's probably the best display Oculus could get their hands on atm that met the price point.
It should also give decent performance as a big stepping-stone towards the CV1. More important than the display is going to be the positional tracking.

What Daniel said about the Pentile screens is also true though - it's a very similar system to what is used on virtually every digital TV system / DVD player / Blu-Ray / H.264 compressed files. They only give half as much bandwidth to the colour difference components as they do to luminance, so its kind of similar.

The Pentile panel should make up for that a lot though, as it does have the full complement of Green pixels, which is arguably the most important primary colour for our psycho-visual perception of detail.

(ie. video compression using the 4:2:2 mode discards half of the resolution for the colour component.)

Low persistence has indeed been shown to be relatively important for VR by people like Abrash / Carmack in the past, and others before them.
Even more important might be low-blurring (not quite the same thing as I understand it?), which is probably what Oculus were also aiming for on the DK2?

Let's just face the facts though - the DK2 is going to be a cool device anyway, but was never intended to "compete" with the CV1 features. :)
They just wanted to get something out the door faster for developers with true 6DOF and other features. Frankly I'm quite surprised they managed it so soon.

I'm hoping the positional tracking will alleviate a lot of the motion sickness I experience on the DK1 as well...

It's been said that even as you breathe in and out, your head moves by an often imperceptible amount.
Without accurate (or any) positional tracking, even just this slight movement can cause nausea due to the middle-ear / brain disconnect.

I'll be enjoying my RiftUP! soon, and it should give the DK1 a fair bit of resale value as well if I ever decide to sell it (probably never).

The DK2 is sure to be even more fun to use as well. Can't wait.

OzOnE.
P.S. Earthquake just hit off the coast of Chile - 7.9 / 8.0 on the Richter scale, and possibly Tsunami warning. :o
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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cgp44 wrote:
V8Griff wrote: Keeping your head still is pointless in a 360 degree world. If you keep your head still then take off your HMD and sit close to your big monitor.
Oh this is just so off base. You can move your head, just not continual wobbling. Low persistence
stuff is momentary phenomena. This is why I am sceptical. Oculus boys do exaggerate sometimes.
Remember the jaw dropping. Nice theatrics.
Low persistence = presence and that is a big deal for VR. You can get a glimpse of it in the rift when comparing games with fast rendering/low blur/high frame rates to the poorer optimised games. Motion blur clearly has a massive impact on presence.

Most of my gaming is in the form of simracing. When doing that with the rift I use my head a lot to look through the corners, checking mirrors etc. Low persistence will help with that because I need to maintain a clear view without motion blur. Space shooters and flight combat sims will also benefit from low persistence for the same reason.

In FPS games which support tank mode, separating head movement from movement direction, I also use my head a fair bit when moving around. It's only in games which don't support tank mode where I stop using my head because you have to look straight ahead all the time you're moving. Those games, like all the unity demos, feel very restrictive to me. I always feel like I'm playing with a neck brace on. As mentioned, it makes it more like a big 3D monitor experience than a VR experience.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cybereality »

Anyone doubting low-persistence hasn't tried it.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

cgp44 wrote:
V8Griff wrote: Keeping your head still is pointless in a 360 degree world. If you keep your head still then take off your HMD and sit close to your big monitor.
Oh this is just so off base. You can move your head, just not continual wobbling. Low persistence
stuff is momentary phenomena. This is why I am sceptical. Oculus boys do exaggerate sometimes.
Remember the jaw dropping. Nice theatrics.

"'... so off base" So how much experience of VR do you have? Doesn't sound like you have much at all, probably just from your DK1 I'd guess.
I've been using HMDs since the early '90s and have put literally thousands of people into VR environments and observed their reactions.

We all make subtle movements with our heads continually even when we're sitting 'still' and the inability to deal with the various, subconscious visual cues all lead to 'simulator sickness'. fast and sensitive positional tracking is one cue that is essential, 99% of the people who used the Virtuality systems I had never suffered from nausea because of this but many complained about the screens 'smearing' or the images being 'blurred'.

Obviously low persistence is a solution to that and has been fully researched by some highly experienced and well respected people such as Michael Abrash outside of Oculus (I know he works for them now) I guess you should check this video out if you haven't already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-2dQoeqVVo (See around 15.00)

By dismissing low persistence I'd suggest you're letting your apparently uninformed enthusiasm get the better of you again as @Cyber has suggested.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

cybereality wrote:Anyone doubting low-persistence hasn't tried it.

Cyber....how is the low persistence...is it really that amazing..??
When I play games like skyrim and hawken the latency isn't so great. Would this help?

Are distant obejects easier to see?? like a tree or mountain in a distance doesn't look like its from minecraft?
(no offense to minecraft)
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

I still suspect that low P. is a momentary subtle phenomena. Of course I am not dismissing it,
just sceptical of its importance. Final judgement awaits independent experience.
Being momentary, when you move your head, things do blur but immediately
clarify half second after. Now if I was continually wobbling my head I would get sick in the real
world too! And there are other nausea-creating issues that way outweight momentary blurring.
For example Unity to me seems to have a flaw. The worlds created with it wobble badly.
The king sicko demo is great power. What the hell is wrong with that one?

V8Griff I have had the DK1 for six months now, and have experimented specifically to look for
motion blur.
Last edited by cgp44 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

This is gonna be a great Rift experience for chickens then. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLwML2PagbY

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

It ain't just chicken heads that do this. Ever wondered why our view of the world
is stable?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

cgp44 wrote:It ain't just chicken heads that do this. Ever wondered why our view of the world
is stable?
because our eyes do it. which means the screen moving with the rest of our head gets blurred.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

@cgp44 - I often agree with most of your statements, but why are you so sceptical of the low-persp thing?

There have been many studies into VR displays over many decades, and low-persistence has been shown to be as important as things like accurate / fast tracking, low-blur / low-latency / high-refresh / high-ppi displays for improving the feeling of presence.

The combination of all these things can surely only make the VR experience better?

The DK1 display suffers from noticeable blur / pixel persistence, and I'm sure this adds to the slight motion sickness I get from using it.


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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Spudgy »

This video might help explain why it's important in VR, particularly the animations from 6:40 on.


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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

Spudgy, I've seen all that in the thread I created about motion blur explained.

Our heads move quickly from one spot to another, remains there for a while (whilst focusing) then moves on.
The motion blur lasts whilst our head is moving, but quickly ceases, hence my argument about it being subtle.

About the chicken heads etc. It is not our eyes, rather the visual cortex that makes our worlds stable.
Our 3D vision is a tiny part of our FOV. Elbows pointing forward hands up represents the visual overlap
and I presume the actual good 3D stereo is but a third of that in a narrow vertical strip. Hence our eyes are
actually darting back and forth rendering in 3D the objects of interest- makes me wonder about those
UI that track the eyeball.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

My point was that the stability is not from our heads being stabalized, and hence the screen is in motion, and hence it creates a blur. Even if you do hold your head perfectly still when focusing on things(even small motions are going to cause blur), you are discounting the effect the blur during motion has, apparently because it doesn't sound important to you, which goes in defiance of what everyone with hands-on experience with low persistence and who has studied this thinks. You can theorize about it all you want, but in practice it has been shown to be a huge deal.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Endothermic »

cgp44 try this demo http://www.testufo.com/#pattern=checker ... yetracking

Don't move your head at all, the station image is perfectly clear, sharp and detailed. Now without moving your head look at the one moving across the screen. You can't make out anything, there's just a white line going across the body of the UFO instead of those individual squares, you can see the right colours but you can't make out his eyes or his body shape, the landing gear is hard to distinguish.

As the description says the blur in this demo is caused by persistence not the response time of the screen. You arn't moving your head it is perfectly still but looking at the moving image on the screen looks completely blurred. With low persistence that moving image would look as clear or almost as clear as the stationary one, it would be much clearer then what you are seeing at least.

So even if you don't wobble your head around with your HMD on and keep it 100% still, if you don't have a low persistence panel then if something moves across the screen like someone runs, drives, flies etc across in front of you or you are in a car and try to read a sign you drive past then they will appear blurred to some degree. You might have an enemy and an ally which look pretty similar though you can tell them apart and depending on the environment, distance, situation etc, you might see one of them run/swim/drive whatever across in front of you and because of the blur though you arn't sure if it's your friend or your enemy even though you are easily sure which it is when they are still.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

I'll shut up now. But.... That illusion demo. Doesn't it show our visual limitation rather that a display artifact?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by bobjwatts »

Great example Endothermic, I hadn't seen that page on Blur Busters.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

cgp44 wrote:I'll shut up now. But.... That illusion demo. Doesn't it show our visual limitation rather that a display artifact?
If that was true, low persistence wouldn't fix it.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Endothermic »

The visual system does have it's problems but in this case it's not the cause of the blur and it has it's own sort of low persistence built in to prevent blurring during eye movement. It's one of the reasons why you can't see your own eyes move in a mirror when looking from one eye to the other..

Print the UFO out or get a piece of paper with some text on it and move it across the screen at the same speed while following it with your eyes and it will look just as good as if you hold it still. Depending how steady you can hold it etc it may not be 100% as clear but you'll still be able to see every detail that you can while it is stationary compared to if it was on a persistent display.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

I think you are missing the illusion. It's is not the UFO, rather the background pattern we do not see.
This is some weird human visual limitation not a screen sample and hold of a distant point moving along pixels.
Am I wrong?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

I don't even know what you are trying to say.


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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

I'm a believer. Praise be to Palmer, Ahem.

John beware of functional purists. Haskell is the domain
of the comp scientist who will not allow for any state (persistent variables etc).

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Endothermic »

cgp44 wrote:I think you are missing the illusion. It's is not the UFO, rather the background pattern we do not see.
This is some weird human visual limitation not a screen sample and hold of a distant point moving along pixels.
Am I wrong?
Yes you see a checker pattern because of the way our visual system is blurring the motion, however the reason it blurs it because of the persistence of the display. The UFO shows it better than the changing background because you have the stationary UFO as a frame of reference. When the image is not moving it is perfectly detailed and sharp, when it is moving and we are following it, it is now blurry and undefined.

If you don't actually follow the moving UFO and just look at one spot say where it comes out from then you can tell that there are small squares or something along the body of the UFO and not a thick solid line. You can't notice any details because it moves out of view too fast and there is still other sources of blur but you can clearly see that it does not have a red body with a thick stripe along it but numerous squares.

As soon as you start to follow the image though you can no longer tell there are squares, it just looks like a red body with a thick solid line going across it. So yes it is our visual system when we are moving our eyes that is blurring it, but it is doing that because of the persistence of the display. The persistence doesn't matter so much when we are just looking in the one spot and it flew across, but as soon as we start to move our eyes and follow the image, because of how our visual system works, that persistence of the image causes it to look like there is just a thick solid line now and the smearing of all the other details of the image.

They specifically tell you "Short-persistence displays (such as CRT or LightBoost) eliminate this motion blur, so this motion test looks different on those displays"

Yes it is our visual system that blurs it, but it only happens when there is a constant source of visual information to process. If the display is low persistence then there is not constant source of information since it is just black most of the time and our visual system ends up not blurring it. If the blurring (and background illusion due to the blurring) were not due to the persistence the display then it would look the same if you had lightboost enabled or used a CRT monitor and there would be no need to instruct people using these will eliminate it and you will not see it.

EDIT: Go into a store and try a lightboost monitor. Turn off lightboost and use smooth scrolling on the middle mouse button to scroll down a page of text and follow a word with your eyes, don't scroll it too fast but fast enough that the text is clearly blurry (pun intended). Now turn on lightboost and scroll at the same speed and follow the word again, it should be just as sharp and readable as when it isn't scrolling. It is your visual system blurring it when lightboost is off, but its only blurring it because of the persistence of the display, with lightboost on and no persistence in the display it causes your visual system to no longer blur the words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzYZWbov8v4

Obviously you can't "see" it in that video since its a video and you have a persistent display but you can see how fast the text is moving on level 20 and can imagine how impossible it would be to read that text on a persistent display. Just make a small notepad window and type some stuff in the then move it across your screen, without moving it anywhere near that speed it becomes completely unreadable, yet when using low persistence its perfectly clear and readable at that high speed. So again our visual system is blurring it but when it is a low persistent display it no longer blurs it.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by play2lose »

I am a huugeee believer in low persistence. Trust me guys, it works like magic.

Now I haven't tested the DK2, but I have had a LightBoost monitor before.

Look at this test here:

http://www.testufo.com/#pattern=lines2&test=eyetracking

On any regular screen or TV or monitor, the top UFO should be perfectly clear but you'll see that bottom UFO is blurry and trailing pixels even though it's moving relatively slow (compared to how some objects move in our video games)

Now if you see it on a LightBoost monitor (or a DK2 which should be comparable or even better) the moving UFO is JUST as crisp and clear as the stationary one. It really is amazing to witness, it's much less like looking at a screen and more like looking at a real object, even when just using the lightboost monitor. I can't even imagine how much of an improvement it's going to be for the Rift when your entire FOV is surrounded by crystal clear moving images, but it will be huge.

I remember when I first got my DK1 I was blown away at first, and figured the resolution was the only thing they needed to improve. But that same after the initial shock of VR wore off, I started to realize the massive amount of motion blur. I looked in multiple forums about the issue and some even said it might not be solvable. That was a big issue for me, even more so than resolution, and I am ecstatic they got it solved already by DK2.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

We are all converts here. These demonstrations just show the effect of non zero
pixel switching time from full on to off. So that screen enhancer technology just shortens
the switching time, and compensates by boosting the led current to keep the brightness the same.
When we get the DK2 with its 3ms global screen on time then we can truly experience the magic of low persistence.
Perhaps the major experience improvement will be the elimination of blurring due to the switching time
rather than sample and holding of distant points moving along pixels which is the reported
motion blur nausa effect.

IF and its a big IF we can eliminate all other causes of nausea. My main concern is bad
world wobble from various sources.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Fredz »

cgp44 wrote:These demonstrations just show the effect of non zero pixel switching time from full on to off.
This has nothing to do with pixel switching times, the effect would be the same with a display with very short pixel switching times (OLED), just try it on a Samsung Galaxy S4 or another mobile phone with an OLED display. The problem is only due to the sample and hold technique.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

Wow...now all of a sudden I feel the need to get a light boost monitor.. :lol:
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

I've been waiting for any support for my side of the argument.
As there is none, and the main topic has ceased for a while
I'll continue to bait and switch, just for a little bit more. Lets just
put aside the testimonies at this stage and go on guestimates etc.

I still stand by my last post, Fredz is wrong that this demos motion
blur as goes the main point of that is 'you have a point at a distance that is not
correctly drawn in its proper place along a line of pixels because of sample and hold.
Hence somehow this affects the brain. '

My post was saying this purported effect is simply overcome with all the high contrast
edge transitions going across the screen. A 2D UFO zapping across the screen can only
demonstrate this.

Now I wonder if really big pixel numbers say 4K mitigate this pixel switching blur as the number
of pixels for the moving edge becomes smaller, thus your circle of blur becomes smaller.

Thus has Palmer sacrificed the best of class resolution for technologically behind oled screens
with their 1ms or 3ms switching time. Of course maybe oled factories have caught up with lcd.
But I don't know there are 4k screen on 0.5 sq inch displays. And if their switching time is anywhere
reasonable, that is what Oculus should go after not oled.
Last edited by cgp44 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

Things don't just move on the edge. Everything about it moves, and it will be moving a specific distance on the screen, not a number of pixels. I don't see how a higher resolution is supposed to fix this blur. If I take a pen and move it 1 inch across a paper, then do the same thing with a marker, the size of the dot I am dragging is not the main factor in how long the line is.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

A higher resolution means that the length on screen of the number of pixels it takes to switch from
one contrast level to another reduces in size, given a certain velocity across the screen.
The blurring due to edges moving across the screen is less. The size of the pixel line that the incorrectly
positioned pixel is in, is less.

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Fredz
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Fredz »

cgp44 wrote:I still stand by my last post, Fredz is wrong that this demos motion
blur as goes the main point of that is 'you have a point at a distance that is not
correctly drawn in its proper place along a line of pixels because of sample and hold.
Hence somehow this affects the brain.'
I've a hard time understanding what you say, but I stand by what I said. I even proved my point by saying that an OLED display with very fast pixel switching times does exhibit the same behavior than a LCD with slow pixel switching times. I've got a Samsung Galaxy S4 with an OLED panel and I see the exact same effect than with my LCD TV. It's because of sample & hold, not pixel switching times.

If you need someone more authoritative on the subject :
"The net result is a smear, unless persistence is close to zero or the eye is not moving relative to the pixel."
From : http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/w ... our-brain/
cgp44 wrote:A higher resolution means that the length on screen of the number of pixels it takes to switch from one contrast level to another reduces in size, given a certain velocity across the screen. The blurring due to edges moving across the screen is less. The size of the pixel line that the incorrectly positioned pixel is in, is less.
From http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/w ... in-judder/ :
"Suppose you turn your head at 120 degrees per second, while wearing a 60 Hz HMD; that’s two degrees per displayed frame. Two degrees doesn’t sound like much, but on an Oculus Rift development kit it’s about 14 pixels, and if an HMD existed that had a resolution approximating the resolving capability of the human eye, a two-degree arc across it would cross hundreds of pixels."

cgp44
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

Maybe I'm wrong with regard to length of blur.

cgp44
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

for the blue and red sub pixels heres the DK1 -> DK2 screen resolution improvement.
DK1 1200x800 => DK2 1360x850

Calculated from half blue/red per green subpixel area square root half is 0.707 factor.

Enjoy your enhanced DK2 resolution VR experiences. Best if you used monochrome.

Mystify
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

So cynical. Enjoy having higher numbers on your spec sheet.

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