Dev Kit 2 Released!

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cybereality »

@OzOnE2k10: Personally, I am a big fan of standing VR. However, I think Oculus is trying to solve one problem at a time. For DK2 that was the best seated experience possible.

@GeraldT: The SDK returns a positional value, which is 100% accurate when you are in view. If you go out of the view, if falls back onto a head/neck model used to estimate the position. However, this estimate will probably be a little bit off of the real value. So when you hit the divide (i.e. going out of range, or coming back into range) there will likely be a disconnect. As a developer, the SDK will tell you whether the headset is in view or not, so you can choose to do what you want at this point.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

cybereality wrote: @GeraldT: The SDK returns a positional value, which is 100% accurate when you are in view. If you go out of the view, if falls back onto a head/neck model used to estimate the position. However, this estimate will probably be a little bit off of the real value. So when you hit the divide (i.e. going out of range, or coming back into range) there will likely be a disconnect. As a developer, the SDK will tell you whether the headset is in view or not, so you can choose to do what you want at this point.
I take that as - "no we have not tried it yet"? ;)
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

I wonder if the positional tracking will help calibration stay on the dev kit 2...Sometimes after I play the rift I am looking in complete different direction then when I started....Which makes the experience a little disturbing sometimes lol

I hope this is fixed as the position tracking might not help if its pointed at my back.

Also I wonder if people who are using vr treadmills will be affected when they turn in different directions and are not facing the camera. How will the positional tracking help them?
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

squibbfire wrote:I wonder if the positional tracking will help calibration stay on the dev kit 2...Sometimes after I play the rift I am looking in complete different direction then when I started....Which makes the experience a little disturbing sometimes lol

I hope this is fixed as the position tracking might not help if its pointed at my back.

Also I wonder if people who are using vr treadmills will be affected when they turn in different directions and are not facing the camera. How will the positional tracking help them?
The drift has already been optimized a lot, with optical tracking this will be a thing of the past :)
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Yep, the camera gives it a fix reference point, so drift should be essentially near-zero as it should in theory always have a locked-in view.

But, will the DK2 internal tracker also have use of a magnetometer, or is it now relying on solely on the camera for drift correction?

Not that it really matters, 'cos I'm sure the camera / accelerometer fusion gives excellent accurate tracking anyway.

@squibbfire - I was just asking about the turned-head thing a few pages back...

The answer seems to be that although the rotational and positional tracking will be very good, and the head can be rotated quite far, it may cause issues when doing full "standing VR".

When all the IR LEDs on the DK2 are occluded by the user's head, it will fall back on a head-neck model to do some of the positional stuff using the internal accelerometers.
EDIT: I'm not actually sure if the positional tracking works when the LEDs are all occluded?

It's still a bit of a concern of a few people, but it is a dev kit after all, and is promising to deliver a hugely improved experience over the DK1.
A lot of this small issues are likely to be solved in the consumer version.

It would be good to see a demonstration of standing VR with a WizDish / Omni treadmill and the DK2.

Could Oculus possibly just throw a quick video together to show how well it performs in different VR setups?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Likay »

OzOnE2k10 wrote:Not that it really matters, 'cos I'm sure the camera / accelerometer fusion gives excellent accurate tracking anyway.
I'm quite positive it will be sufficient too. The rift could use the accelerometers as main input for headtracking and just use the camera/IR-leds for in time correction (with quite high filtering so "teleporting" or "rushcorrection" effects are avoided). Besides driftcalibration i believe that a constant for the accelerometers drift can be calculated and cause less drift at the times when the led's aren't visible. Just a theory but i think this can be experiemented with freely.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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OzOnE2k10 wrote: But, will the DK2 internal tracker also have use of a magnetometer, or is it now relying on solely on the camera for drift correction?
I'm pretty sure they're using an evolution of the actual IMU of DK1, so the standard accelerometer, gyroscope and magnetometer are being used alongside the optical tracking!

Off Topic, is it normal for the official Oculus forums and share sites to be down for maintenance for such a long time, or are they performing some huge update after the facebook affair? :?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

crespo80 wrote: Off Topic
Is it normal for the official Oculus forums and share sites to be down for maintenance for such a long time, or are they performing some huge update after the facebook affair :?
yeah - it really makes one curious... especially that they took the order form offline for such a long period! My guess is that they decided the weekend is the right time to do it because enthusiasts are less important than professionals (it is a developers kit).
Alternative theory - given all the hate some idiot with a botnet ...
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cybereality »

We're performing some maintenance on the site. It's not related to Facebook.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

it's not implementing the rock solid payment system? ... now I am really curious.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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cybereality wrote:We're performing some maintenance on the site. It's not related to Facebook.

Thanks, that's the question I dropped in to the forum to check on.....
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

I don't know if this has been asked... but will Dev kit 2 still work with virieo Perception Drivers? has there been any word on an update? integrated Positional tracking included?

Don't want to sound to whiny or anything but Skyrim in the new dev kits 2 just sounds so tempting...:-)
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Just realised a solution to the LED occlusion issue....

Two cameras. Simple. ;)

That would allow for pretty much full coverage throughout a room.


Another possibility that just struck me - I don't know why I didn't catch on before (although I'm sure someone on this forum already did?)...

I know that finger / hand tracking has been mentioned as a possible app for the DK2 IR camera, but it could in theory be used to track multiple points on the user's body. :o

I'm also not sure if the DK2 sequences it's LEDs or not, but I'd wager that it does. We'll know soon enough.

If the DK2 does sequence the LEDs, then it wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine having extra LEDs with their own timings too.
This would allow for simple markers on the arms and legs, motion capture style.

It might also allow input wand devices (like on CastAR) and all sorts of other stuff like IR fiducial markers.

I'm sure the Oculus guys already had these ideas in mind (and many more), so it makes the DK2 arrival even more appetising. :)

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

OzOnE2k10 wrote:Just realised a solution to the LED occlusion issue....

Two cameras. Simple. ;).
Wouldn't that potentially create problems if two cameras can see the same LED at the same time, or are they already mapped to the object being tracked so each camera knows which LED is which?

Don't know just a thought.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

oh wait...just put leds on the strap itself!
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Yep, LEDs on the strap would be one solution, but I don't know if the LEDs are strobed in groups or whatever (so the camera can differentiate between them)?

Same goes for the two camera thing - if the LEDs are all just switched on all the time, then it's wiimote style point / pattern tracking, and could cause issues with multiple cameras.

I'm hoping the DK2 LEDs are strobed in some way though, as it would allow for many more tracking possibilities.

This is another thing we need confirming tbh - are the LEDs on the DK2 always-on, or are they pulsed in some way via the USB connection?
(with the camera capturing at a high frame rate)

Just some theories to put out there atm.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

Folks, be warned,
if your favourite game has a preponderance of blue and red pixels,
i.e., those dark and gloomy spooky environments, you may well be setting yourself up for
disappointment with DK2. Because of the push to low persistence, Oculus has chosen
an OLED screen that uses a clever trick of doubling the green pixels, whilst keeping
red and blue pixels the same. Oculus had the HD prototype which I presume is the same
screen as RiftUP! but they chose low persistence with a compromised resolution upgrade.
This is important to me as we are all seeking a resolution upgrade plus anything else.
Last edited by cgp44 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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I thought doubling the green pixel was just standard. you have cells of 4, fill 3 with rgb, and then stick another green in the last spot.
Unless I am only thinking of cameras?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

But Samsung advertised their phones with the ams499qp01 oled screen as 1920x1200.
I am not allowed to call this marketing BS as apparently it works when looking at the phone
at reading distance. But under 5x magnification the trick falls apart. Get a RiftUP! and see the
difference. Spread the word.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

No offense, but you come across as someone throwing out a slanderous, baseless claim just to promote their own product. Do you have a hands-on experience with this being problematic? Are there any reports of people with a DK2 that complained about it? If it is present, is it worth losing out on all of the other features of the DK2 to correct? Or are you just grasping at anything to try to get people to purchase your own product that has been rendered obsolete?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

Yeah, someone who challenges me.
Go look at any image of a pentile subpixel screen and figure it out for yourself.
I bet you they all start complaining once they see it with their own eyes.
I'm just issuing a warning and suggesting an alternative which just this week
is in production.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

Rendered obselete. Could be. Oculus forgoes the HD prototypes resolution for low persistence.
This does seem to indicate there is a lot of importance with low P. I have ordered DK2 btw.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

I did look up pentile screens. I don't see what your point is about them. What about this is so much worse than other pixel component patterns?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

The red and and blue sub-pixels have half the advertised resolution.
They have the same spacing as the 1200x800 displays.
If you look at the RiftUP! campaign page in indiegogo there is
a red swiggle that is rendered higher. That will not happen
in a pentile screen. The yellow swiggle will. It is just there are
many environments that do not render a lot of green.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

There is also the factor that boards with that pattern are doing fancy stuff like sub-pixel sampling rather than simply outputting naively, which means that the overall picture should look just fine anyways, and that may even have an effect to obfuscate the screen door. You are making bold claims about the picture quality, from a position of never having tried it, with the clear motivation of pushing your own alternative. Show me anyone who has tried this and found it wanting, rather than presenting half of the story.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

magical multiplication of pixel resolution. You believe it if you want.
End of conversation.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

yes, just like we magically display an image that magically undistorts through lenses and how we can magically align the camera to your head orentation and magically show 2 images that are slightly different to produce a 3d effect and magically alter the colors being displated to correct for chromatic aberation.
I've seen people talking about how to take advantage of the sub-pixel arrangement to do more sophisticated anti-aliasing and such. From what I read, it sounds like their chip for controlling the screen does that type of logic. This entire VR concept is based around doing really clever algorithms. I mean, you even said it yourself "as apparently it works when looking at the phone at reading distance." This does mean that what they are doing works. You then follow up with the claim that it falls apart under zoom, and have not been able to provide any evidence that it does, other than "look at it, its obviously wrong". Well, obvious is not always right. All I've seen is a lot of conjecture, from a very clearly biased source.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Spudgy »

This is apparently a photo taken through the DK2 lens.

http://i.imgur.com/tyJT7tR.jpg

I don't see any particular issue with the red and blue areas, though they're fairly solid blocks of colour. It's only in the zoomed in areas where the difference becomes slightly noticeable. I don't know how zoomed in that photo might be either.

IMO low persistence + positional head tracking will be of more value than a possible minor image quality difference between PenTile and LCD.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

@cgp44 - are you involved with the RiftUP! kit / campaign at all?
I didn't think you were, but @Mystify seems to think you are?

Just thought I'd ask.


I've also ordered both a RiftUP! kit and a DK2, so time will tell if the Pentile panel is that noticeable.
cgp44 is just pointing out an alternative by the looks of it. I'm not really sure what the big deal is?

It is true that some clever sub-pixel algos may be possible with the Pentile screen, but the fact is that you simply can't display Red-only or Blue-only parts of an image at a resolution as high as the Green-only parts.

Although, our eyes aren't very sensitive to Blue of course, so it may be that Red-only parts of an image will be slightly lacking in detail on the DK2.
Either way, I'm sure it will look WAY better than the DK1, and that's all that matters atm.

In other words, I'm not expecting to be too disappointed once my DK2 arrives.

From the image that Spudgy posted, the panel looks rather good.

For the majority of games with brighter images, Green is going to be predominant for the most part.
That's likely why the "trick" of the Pentile layout looks OK I'm guessing?

(by "brighter games", I mean the more popular games as opposed to some of the more quirky Indie / VR games with bright primary colours).

It is a bit of a shame that Oculus couldn't get hold of a "FULL" 1080p OLED in time for the DK2, but I'm sure it will be fine.
If it's not fine, then you'll probably hear me moaning about it in a few month's time. :lol:

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

OzOnE2k10 wrote: @cgp44 - are you involved with the RiftUP! kit / campaign at all?
I didn't think you were, but @Mystify seems to think you are?

Just thought I'd ask.
Not surprising @Mystify thinks that way as @cgp44 does seem to be 'Trolling' somewhat. If he's an enthusiastic supporter
I'd suggest he's not doing the RiftUP! guys much good by attempting to undermine the offering of a multi-billion dollar company ;)
OzOnE2k10 wrote: I've also ordered both a RiftUP! kit and a DK2, so time will tell if the Pentile panel is that noticeable.
cgp44 is just pointing out an alternative by the looks of it. I'm not really sure what the big deal is?
Looking forward to seeing some comparisons here, I'm tempted by the RiftUp but with DK2 on the way I'm happy to wait for an 'official' product.
OzOnE2k10 wrote: In other words, I'm not expecting to be too disappointed once my DK2 arrives.
From the image that Spudgy posted, the panel looks rather good.
I agree.
OzOnE2k10 wrote: It is a bit of a shame that Oculus couldn't get hold of a "FULL" 1080p OLED in time for the DK2, but I'm sure it will be fine.
If it's not fine, then you'll probably hear me moaning about it in a few month's time. :lol:

OzOnE.
Maybe that will coming in the CV1 and that's the reason they're stressing that non developers should wait for the retail version rather than get DK2 and feel cheated
when CV1 comes quickly afterwards with a much better screen and then start slagging off Oculus and Facebook about being greedy.......

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

ok, looking at the riftUp! thread again, I may have misinterpreted his posts. In any case, he is extremely enthusiastic about it and seems to be highly invested in it, even if its not monetarily.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

More research into the pentile displays:
Some people were doing comparisons of sub-pixels per inch to show that the pentile displays were weaker than normal LCDs, but then someone else just showed a side-by-side comparion of the screens and the pentile display was one of the sharpest looking ones, if not the sharpest - and those were on pictures that were drastically zoomed in so you could make out pixels. There is more going on here than naive calculations would imply. Also, then pentile displays were shown to have truer colors than other displays when the phones were put into movie mode. Couple this with the low-persistence, which for VR will make the image seem drastically sharper, and the image quality seems like it will be clearly superior in the DK2.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

There's some pretty smart guys at Oculus and screen quality/resolution along with update capability/refresh is something John Carmack has been emphasising as necessary for a long time so I'd be surprised if they'd gone down a flawed/compromise route especially with the resources they had at their disposal even before the FB purchase.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

My own interests are doing hdmi to mipi on a fpga. I wish rozsnyo had gone down
this path as it would have halved his costs and he may have captured a good
chunk of the very cost sensitive market, rather than the niche.

I hope the message is spread, but so far the marketing department not produced
anything as there is no external to this area (blogs and buried to trash listings crowdfunder) coverage.

Why and how would I have an interest in Rozsnyo's business, he is on other side of the
world and I don't have money to invest. It is just we all have being waiting for someone
to do full HD mipi (anything) for over a year.

So Rozsnyo makes one for a bit more than some of the dreamers in here. Really RiftUP!
replaces the whole thing, the remainder is just injection molded plastic- any guesses as to
the production unit cost of that $10? The lenses are plastic.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

My guess as to why pentile subpixel setup exists is because OLED technology
is not as mature as LCD, hence Samsung came up with it to get into fhd.
I assume that once they can put the full number of sub pixels on they will
go back to the usual arrangement. Has anyone seen the latest Samsung
screen up close?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

not in person, but I have seen side-by-side close ups of it with other top end phones, and the screen look good in comparison.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

You see this why I think Palmer et al grabbed a big chunk of money (foolishly from anyone)
as he is sick of begging.

The DK2 screen is highly likely to be the compromised fhd ams499qp01.
Its just that low persistence is their latest buzz word and they
publicised it massively. And I suspect the CV1 is not coming out
soon (ie this year) because they will not put the compromised fhd
into the consumer version, so they are now chasing custom manufacture
and that will likely be a year's wait. So to fend off developer and enthusiast
toy tossing emotional thread and media spamming they have thrown out the DK2.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

Ah, yes, low persistence is just a buzz word, its not like people have written papers explaining why it is crucial for VR, nor are there people who have tried the new dev kit and found it to be a drastically better experience. He is only releasing the DK2 to appease people, not because it offers crucial new features that developers need to integrate. I'm sure Occulus hasn't actually been looking into how to make good VR and are just throwing out something with the biggest numbers to put on their site. Mmmhmmmm, this isn't a needlessly pessimistic point of view that lacks evidence, no siree.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cgp44 »

This is what I am looking forward to test when I have both a full HD headset and
a low P DK2. The reason I call low persistence a buzz word is because in many
in the games I'm not moving a hell of a lot, that is my head is not wobbling around.
I suppose if you do get a bit sick you stop wobbling your head around.
I will see.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

If you can hold your head perfectly still, then sure, the persistence won't matter. I certainly am not a statue while playing- I have to put forth a concentrated effort not to move my head sideways or forward, as the DK1 won't track it and it ends up making me sick.
In any case, it is far too early to start spouting accusations of the screen being inferior. If you haven't tried it, all you are basing your accusations on are your own theories. I trust Occulus's actual experience with the screen and other alternatives more than your own hypothesis of it sucking.

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