Dev Kit 2 Released!

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

I have talked to several people that ordered a second dev kit now. Just to have an extra because they think there will be a HUGE shortage now in July/August.

Don't forget anyone reading this news will have to wait till July or later to get their Rift....
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

V8Griff wrote: As you say there will be a few people feeling a bit silly soon, can you go back to your posts on Reddit and delete them or are they there for eternity?
I think you can actually delete them - but not sure if the option is available for eternity. Reddit does not allow you to comment on old stuff that got archieved, so very likely the same is true for old stuff and the delete function? not sure though
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Zoide »

cybereality: Did you get a chance to look into the DK2 courier questions?

Thanks

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

Zoide wrote:cybereality: Did you get a chance to look into the DK2 courier questions?

Thanks
I think they might have been a bit busy the last couple of days..... :D ... or down the pub celebrating, only joking.

I'm sure they'll get back to you soon.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

cybereality wrote:But in the short-term, I don't think much is changing around Oculus. In the long-term, I'm sure there will be room for growth into other areas outside gaming and it's really exciting to think about the mainstream use of VR. For sure, it's an exciting time to be part of this movement.
Thanks, cyber. That has put my mind at rest a bit.

As long as you all stick to your core values regarding Oculus products, I think it will be more than fine. 8-)

I think the big fear is that Faceplant will come along at some point and totally steer you away from gaming / fun experiences, or force adverts and social networking to be tied into every new product without the option of disabling it?

It just seems very strange for a company like Facebook to buy a relatively small tech company?


I really wished from the beginning that I could work for you guys (even before the FB thing).
I've always wanted to live in the US, and working in the VR / entertainment market must be fantastic?

I'm not sure how much I could offer you though, as you already have some of the most talented minds working there now.
Just say the word, and I'll catch the first flight out. :D

Anywho - yep, just wondering about any plans for shipping estimates on the DK2?
I know you're very busy, so whenever you get chance.

Thanks, cyber.


@V8Griff - yeah, I think it's safe to say that I'd be out celebrating too. hehe

Let's face it, the Oculus guys are pretty much set for life now.
That's not to say that it will necessarily be an easier path, but it does open up a LOT more opportunities.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Mystify »

OzOnE2k10 wrote:It just seems very strange for a company like Facebook to buy a relatively small tech company?
Not really. They could just be seeing its potential, and realize that purchasing it now will be much cheaper than later, and so it becomes an investment. Getting a initial, major slice of the VR pie is appealing from a business perspective.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

Mystify wrote:
OzOnE2k10 wrote:It just seems very strange for a company like Facebook to buy a relatively small tech company?
Not really. They could just be seeing its potential, and realize that purchasing it now will be much cheaper than later, and so it becomes an investment. Getting a initial, major slice of the VR pie is appealing from a business perspective.

I think this probably pretty close to the mark:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-mark ... ion-2014-3

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

That was a good read actually.

It's starting to make more sense now when you consider that it's $400 Million in cash rather than the whole $2 Billion in one chunk (so to speak).

I've also read a bit more from what Zuckerberg and Brendan said on the subject, and it does sound like they ensured that Oculus would be left mainly as an independent entity.

After seeing all the hundreds of articles appearing everywhere even just today, it's making me think "Holy crap - this really is a huge deal!".

This is almost as big as Lucas selling the Star Wars rights to Disney.
At first there was huge outcry about it, but then people started to see that Disney's huge wealth and experience in movie entertainment could be a great thing for the franchise.

Time will only tell how well the next Star Wars movie turns out (although with J J Abrams at the helm, I'm sure it will be entertaining).

The same goes for Oculus and FB - this could be the very deal which solidifies VR as the next big thing in the mainstream.

Who knows - without Facebook's investment, VR could have been at risk of once more fading into obscurity.

Although, I think we are definitely at the point now where we have the graphics / computing power and talented coders and engineers to finally make the "Virtual" into "Reality" (see what I did there? ;) ).


OK, back to the DK2. lol

Does the DK2 still have accelerometers inside, or is all the tracking based on the camera now?

OzOnE.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

OzOnE2k10 wrote: Does the DK2 still have accelerometers inside, or is all the tracking based on the camera now?
OzOnE.
the old tracking mechanisms are still in place afaik - and I expect they will help with the deadzones (when the IR is occluded), but obviously only to a certain extend (looking behind you is okay, but ducking while doing so will break simulated tracking).
Last edited by GeraldT on Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Thanks, GeraldT,

To be honest, I hadn't yet read up on all the DK2 tech specs before placing my order.

It's good to know that the camera / IR tracking is a complement to the usual accelerometer stuff, and people can still turn 180-degrees if need be.

Right now, I'm seriously contemplating what to do about the DK2 order considering the news about Facebook.

I'm wondering if it would be prudent to hold out for the CV1 instead, and I'll be happy enough to play with my 1080p Rift for the time being (with one of Daniel's "RiftUP" kits).

hmmm, not sure what to do....
Oh, what the hell - it's only money. lol

I have a hunch that the DK1 and DK2 will become collector's items in a few years anyway, so worth hanging onto them.

I've got it.... Hey, Oculus, could you please release the first few batches of the DK2 for free? :D
Then we can all invest in a few CV1 kits when they're released.

I'm still excited to hear about the new tech that Oculus may have on the table soon.
No doubt this will include some unique input devices and possible CastAR type holodeck stuff?

Ohhh, interesting - The FB acquisition has this second been announced on Sky News!
Looks like they'll have an article on it after the ad break (oh, the irony).

I must admit to being a tiny bit jealous about all of this.
Please don't forget the forum communities and your "Duct Tape" roots, Palmer! ;)

OzOnE.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by squibbfire »

Since the dev 2.0 kit is coming out...is there any news of a new hydra like usb wifi controller to plug into it being developed yet?
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by V8Griff »

squibbfire wrote:Since the dev 2.0 kit is coming out...is there any news of a new hydra like usb wifi controller to plug into it being developed yet?
That's the Sixense STEM you're talking about there.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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I think 150 might be too expensive for controls...People are already spending 350 on a dev kit....The big selling point of the rift was the cheap price...I would say if they could make something the size of the hydras for around 50 or 60 bucks...VR will be better off....

350 + 150 = 500 bucks...that is too much for peripherals. The computer or system alone will cost that or more.
Sixsense will have to get that price down.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

especially since the smallest two controller bundle is priced at 299 in their shop! I would love to work on games for it, but not if they do not have a consumer priced version.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Just thought of an important point about the DK2 purchase...

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but how can we know what sort of tracking and other features will be on the CV1 compared to the DK2?
In other words, do we know how well the software made for the DK2 will transition to the CV1?

Or, will most of the features (like positional tracking via camera) on the DK2 be abandoned once the CV1 is released?

You would expect that the CV1 will follow on from the DK2 so it will be an easy transition for developers, but after the FB purchase I'm not so sure.
The CV1 may end up using all sorts of mystical voodoo magic and extra input peripherals that are completely incompatible with the DK1 / DK2 sensor fusion?

I've decided I'm keeping my order for the DK2 anyway.
I could always sell it on, but I'll probably keep it for prosperity. :)

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

we do not have to care what system they use, only implement their SDK and they have to worry about keeping it compatible with the content provided.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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Even if they have the funds to add on new features that they couldn't before, they won't do it on the CV1. At least not anything developed relevant. They need to get a body of programs for VR prior to launch, and that is what the DK2 is for. Any changes they make must be compatible with the existing API.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

strongly disagree Mystify - I expect them to add a controller system similar to move. maybe even go the extra mile and cooperate with sony on this. for sony it would be a great way to make it even harder for MS to intrude VR territory and Oculus would profit from content created for move - and for developers it would suddenly be an option to create apps for move.
I think using the cash coming in to make sure every consumer has these motion controls is a big investment into the future - and it will make VR even more awesome (though it would mean they have to go back a little bit on the seated VR thing). But the whole situation has changed ... :)
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by zalo »

Prepare for DK3! :lol:

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

prepare for MoveDK
prepare for IR LED clip-on (the secret port 8-) )

now it would be awesome if Oculus could add that for free for developers to make sure there is support :)
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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I think its too late in the development cycle to add a controller. If anything, that would be much harder for existing projects to incorporate compared to improvements to the headset. At this point, it should be "Ok, here is the finalized design, get everything ironed out", not "Ok, here is a completely different feature, figure something out". For the rift 2, sure, that would make perfect sense. But not now. Its not a matter of cashflow.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Well, it could just be that once the pitch / yaw / roll and positional tracking is in place, it will be a fairly smooth transition to the tracking used on the CV1.

Anything extra like user input periphs can then be bolted onto the SDK as needed?

I honestly do believe that they are looking into some sort of body control and haptics for the CV1.
Quite possible AR cameras and eye tracking too? Whatever will be deemed most reliable and useful for VR / AR in the next few years at least.

Does this mean that most of you believe the CV1 will use a similar camera / accelerometer based tracking system to the DK2?

@GeraldT - do you have any ideas on how the extra port would any real features?
Is that port next to the USB port on the DK2? I haven't really looked into it closely yet.

How do you think adding an IR LED to the "secret" port will enhance things, or am I taking your comment a tad too seriously? lol

OzOnE.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

Mystify wrote:I think its too late in the development cycle to add a controller. If anything, that would be much harder for existing projects to incorporate compared to improvements to the headset. At this point, it should be "Ok, here is the finalized design, get everything ironed out", not "Ok, here is a completely different feature, figure something out". For the rift 2, sure, that would make perfect sense. But not now. Its not a matter of cashflow.
That is assuming they would have to start now, but they started with that very likely quite some time ago. The reason it was not on the table "might" have been that it would have made the price too high. Now I see this as a valid option. The tracking technology is in place with the camera. I can't even guess at what stage they are internally, but I do know that Palmer said there are more cool things coming and my hope is that this is one of them.

OzO I have no idea. I just think with the limited tracking it would be possible to add more tracking LEDs (maybe even without the external power supply?).
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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Its not about occulus having the time, resources, or engineering to pull it off.
its about all of the content producers not having time to utilize it. The DK2 is supposed to be the gold standard to develop to, and then they can release CV1. After the consumer version, they can work on as many changes for the next generation as they please.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

Mystify wrote:Its not about occulus having the time, resources, or engineering to pull it off.
its about all of the content producers not having time to utilize it. The DK2 is supposed to be the gold standard to develop to, and then they can release CV1. After the consumer version, they can work on as many changes for the next generation as they please.
Those two controllers would be pretty much the Wii for VR. Wii games are extremely simple yet very fun ... adding them to the DK2 as an optional accesoire you can but don't have to use will result in dozens if not hundreds of fun applications similar to Wii Sports. I actually have already 2 titles that I would just have to adapt (Leap and Hydra) based plus a couple of prototypes.
And most Hydra/STEM content would be compatible. Not to mention the content the developers create for the Sony Move system. And Sony got quite a few cool reviews thanks to the controllers, so if they catch up with the HMD tech those controllers might make the Rift look a bit old really soon.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by slipstream »

OzOnE2k10 wrote:I am a weak, weak person. lol

I just had a mild "rant" about the Facebook acquisition, and then put in my order for a DK2. :)

I can't really complain about the price, as we're still getting a lot of tech for the money.

The shipping rate of $35 (to the UK) wasn't too bad either, and the $50 deposit made it a bit easier to click the Place Order button.

I don't really care for any of the Sony stuff, as Oculus is where VR is at right now.

I'm starting to see the light regarding the Facebook thing too - my only concern is that they turn Oculus into some sort of Corporate puppet, and try to move them away from their gaming / VR experience roots.

@cybereality - please can you give us any assurances about the Facebook deal?
I'm guessing you can't really say much at this point, but even to hear "don't worry, it's all in hand" would be great. ;)

Also, will you be releasing any estimates on shipping times for DK2 orders based on the order numbers / order date?
(similar to the spreadsheets set up by other forum members)

Hopefully I'm not too late to the party with my DK2 order?


OzOnE.
I haven't been so excited since the release of the Matrox Parhelia. Just read the comment above ref deposit. So, is this all we pay at this stage? Unfortunately I've had to wait until pay day before placing my order (this monday). I'm not too fussed about getting one right away as I want to give it long enough before someone produces a workaround for FSX.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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GeraldT wrote:strongly disagree Mystify - I expect them to add a controller system similar to move. maybe even go the extra mile and cooperate with sony on this. for sony it would be a great way to make it even harder for MS to intrude VR territory and Oculus would profit from content created for move - and for developers it would suddenly be an option to create apps for move.
I think using the cash coming in to make sure every consumer has these motion controls is a big investment into the future - and it will make VR even more awesome (though it would mean they have to go back a little bit on the seated VR thing). But the whole situation has changed ... :)

Yes i expect maybe a small hydra like controller...i know there is sixsense...but that 300 price is out of control... retro fitting a wii remote would probably be more then enough. I want VR to succeed ...not scare off poor people. The rift will need something basic...even if its just an xbox 360 controller...

I have seen many demos and some of them are hydra only....isnt this a little bit of a problem...since they do not make hydras anymore?

I am very excited for the Gallery to come out..but I don't think I will be able to buy a 300 stem system to play with it...Even though I really really want one...
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

I would expect it to be very similar to a move controller actually. Cheap to build and still awesome in VR.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

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how good are move controllers at distinguishing depth?

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

I have no hands on experience, but they seem to be pretty good! If they were not, then it would not have been a pick up and play experience with Sony.
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

@slipstream - I haven't checked my bank statement yet, but AFAIK it's only the $50 deposit initially, then the rest of the balance will be taken when the DK2 ships.

That's my understanding of the deposit thing at least, and that's what happened with my DK1 order (money only taken once shipped).

Best to wait for cybereality or someone to clarify that the balance will ONLY be taken at shipping if you're not sure.
(I'll be keeping enough in my account anyway, just in case it's taken earlier than expected.)

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cybereality »

@Zoide: Look back at my posts on the previous page. I think I answered your question. In any case, it should be the same as with DK1, so you should know what to expect.

@OzOnE2k10: The DK2 is using an IMU for orientation tracking, just like DK1. So the rotation will still work when facing away from the camera (it uses a neck-model to estimate position). We won't be giving out DK2 for free, sorry. The consumer version is going to build on the foundation from DK2. I don't know yet how much will change, but it should be similar in features.

For pre-ordering DK2, you can use credit card or PayPal. PayPal will charge the full amount ($350 + tax + shipping) immediately. For credit card purchases, it will authorize the full amount (so you need the money available) but it will disappear after 1 - 2 days and leave just a $50 deposit. Then the rest is charged when it ships.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by Zoide »

cybereality wrote:@Zoide: Look back at my posts on the previous page. I think I answered your question. In any case, it should be the same as with DK1, so you should know what to expect.
Well, fortunately I ordered and received the DK1 back when mail forwarding was allowed, so I didn't have to pay for a courier. In other words, I still don't know what method you guys would use to ship something to Costa Rica or what the current charges would be (the $120 shipping fee on the Oculus website could literally be just "half the story").

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

cybereality wrote:@OzOnE2k10: The DK2 is using an IMU for orientation tracking, just like DK1. So the rotation will still work when facing away from the camera (it uses a neck-model to estimate position). We won't be giving out DK2 for free, sorry. The consumer version is going to build on the foundation from DK2. I don't know yet how much will change, but it should be similar in features.

For pre-ordering DK2, you can use credit card or PayPal. PayPal will charge the full amount ($350 + tax + shipping) immediately. For credit card purchases, it will authorize the full amount (so you need the money available) but it will disappear after 1 - 2 days and leave just a $50 deposit. Then the rest is charged when it ships.
Excellent, thanks so much for these answers. It puts my mind at rest. 8-)

Oh well, the free DK2 thing was worth a try. :lol:


So we have it on good faith now that the CV1 will likely be using a similar IR tracking system, or at least a system which will be very compatible with the "DK2" SDK API.

The IMU thing sounds good, but I think the main worry of a lot of people is how much the positional tracking might "snap" back into place if the user turns his / her head too far away from the camera (too many IR LEDs occluded)?


I ordered via Debit card, so should be fine. I made sure I had the full amount in the account beforehand of course.
That's good then, so I'll just need to keep the balance in the account for when it ships. ;)

Cheers,
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

have you actually tried the DK1 with a couple of experience OzO?

in almost all scenarios you never look back that much - you look a lot to the side, but for seated VR you barely ever look behind you all the way. and when you do the neck model might pretty much eliminate any distubances (I bet Oculus has some nice interpolation in place for that).

There might be other applications - a good example is the Blocked in demo with the Tetris Blocks falling outside a window, where you actually make a lot of use of tracking - but who knows, now a lot might change and I do see hope for full tracking with the CK1 (and maybe even Dk2 ... via addon?).

My guess stays with Oculus adding the standing VR experience to the portfolio as well as move like controllers. But I am usually wrong :mrgreen:
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

I've tried a few things on the DK1, and found it fun to be standing up for some of them (Tuscany etc.).
That's mainly when using the Hydra, but it would be great to be able to do more of that on the DK2.

When standing, I often found myself turning around then "re-centering" the controls.
This all depends on the type of demo / game of course, and the input method.

But yeah, I guess most of the time I'll be using "seated" type VR games, so it should be pretty good on the DK2.

It's just that people were hoping that Oculus could add the extra LEDs to the strap / back part of the headset so it can get reasonable positional tracking if the head is turned 180-degrees from the camera. It seemed like a logical feature tbh, apart from maybe having the rear LEDs obscured by a person's long hair?

I do think Oculus will try to make the CV1 as complete as possible without so many of these "what if" questions on the tracking etc.

I also have a hunch they're looking quite heavily into haptics / body tracking as well, or even just arm / hand tracking for the CV1.
Palmer and the guys seemed quite intent on giving the most complete full-standing VR experience on a few of the interviews I've seen at least.

OzOnE.

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cybereality
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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by cybereality »

@Zoide: I'm not sure off-hand, but I believe we would ship to you via Hong Kong Post. I imagine there will be some fees (import duty, etc.) involved. I don't know how much.

@OzOnE2k10: Developers can handle the situation of going out of camera range differently. Without any special consideration, though, there may be a "jump."

@GeraldT: Yes, you are correct. In most normal seated positions (even looking all the way to the side) you will still remain in view of the camera. No problems.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by OzOnE2k10 »

Hi, cyber,

Yep, I've seen in the DK2 vids that the positional tracking is petty forgiving.

The users were turning their heads almost all the way around, and the image stayed fairly locked-in.
I saw that the Crystal Cove had LEDs on the sides of the headset as well, so it should give quite a good range, and the DK2 LED arrangement looks very similar.

Can you say if Oculus is looking to go the "standing VR" route for the CV1 though?

OzOnE.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by slipstream »

Many thanks OzOnE. Debit card it is then.

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Re: Dev Kit 2 Released!

Post by GeraldT »

cybereality wrote: @OzOnE2k10: Developers can handle the situation of going out of camera range differently. Without any special consideration, though, there may be a "jump."
so the SDK does not rush you back to the correct position when tracking picks up again but teleports you there?

I am curious, do you know if this is because the jump works better (shorter disconnection time) or is there just no other solution implemented yet (does it make sense to spend time on adding a rushed movement to check the results).
Okay - the SDK will likely change until I get my hands on a DK2 anyway, but I am curious if you already tried and what the result was if you did.
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