Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

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GoldChain
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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

cybereality wrote:Well I primarily use a non-full HD interleaved display (1680x525 in 3D) or sometimes the VR920, which is only 640x480. Hell, even my Vuzix Wrap 310 looks alright for iPod video and its just 428 x 240. I don't think you need ridiculous resolution just to have an enjoyable experience. But it is foolish to trick yourself into thinking there is not a difference. Whether you will notice that difference in your experience is another matter, and subject to debate. And, of course, price-to-performance is always a concern. So paying 300% the price and only getting a marginal increase in quality may not be a good proposition. But at the end of the day interlaced is, in fact, technically half the resolution but I agree that its not necessarily half the quality. I am not trying to convince you to not buy the Mitsu. I think it is a great product and was very close to buying one myself (and I'd still consider it if I run into any money anytime soon). I just wouldn't consider it "FullHD 3D". Thats all.
Agreed. I'm definitely not trying to fool myself into thinking it *is* Full HD 3D. (I'm not sure at this point I even know what is? the new Panasonic VT25s?). It's not that I'm maintaining that it *is* the same, just that it's close enough to most folks wouldn't notice.

To you point, I don't believe paying 300% for a marginal increase in quality (which might be "noticeable" if the 2 systems were side-by-side, but IMHO is virtually undetectable when simply watching the DLP system itself) is worth it. So for me and my dollar, DLP 3D would gives the best bang for the buck.

On a side note, I was hoping to hear something from TI/Mits from CES about a 1920x1080 DMD (which would make the DLP sets Full HD 3D, etc), and found this...

http://www.cepro.com/article/mitsubishi ... _at_ces/K5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What caught my eye was the "120Hz Sub-frame rate"....... which I would take to mean that it's using the same 960x1080 DMD with wobulation. I would think if they're gonna bust out a 1920x1080 DMD, a 92" beast would've been the perfect set to do it on!!

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

So I finally did it. Today I ordered a WD-73C10. I looked around, read forums, downloaded manuals, etc, and aside from a cosmetic difference (i.e. the case is a little different.... more rounded bevel on the bottom on the 738), the C10 and 638 are exactly the same set. However most places want $300+ more for the 73638 compared to the 73C10. So be it.

Needless so say, I ordered the TV, the 3DA-1 converter, and 2 pairs of the UltraClear DLP Link glasses from Ultra 3D Heaven. So once I get everything, I'll report back my findings/opinions on those.

So, ZalmoxisX, thanks for your list of glasses. I've got quite a list that's impressive for the Mitsubishi and Samsungs........ nice they can do both IR and DLP Link. Here's the small list I'd compiled.

Vendor Model Type Price Standard Battery?
Viewsonic PGD-150 DLP-Link $99 Yes - CR2032 x 2
Xpand X102 DLP-Link $129 No
Xpand X103 IR $129 Yes - CR2032 x 2
NXG NXG-3DG IR $69 Yes - CR2032 x 1
UltraClear DLP-Link $59 Yes - CR2032 x 1
UltraClear IR $59 Yes - CR2032 x 1
Optoma BG-ZD101 DLP-Link $99 Yes - CR2032 x 2

I decided to do DLP Link (and save the $40 on the IR emitter and 1 more thing that could go bad). Given that you can't do DLP Link glasses and IR at the same time (well, let me be clear, you CAN use both at once, however, there's a (IMHO "very") slight discoloration seen by the IR glasses viewers when DLP Link is turned on), I wanted to start with 2 pair fo UltraClear, but when I get more, I'm going to explore the other ones. Since I'm limiting myself to DLP Link, That leaves 3 other brands (in this list) I could choose from. It's sad as I'd like to try the Xpand ones, but do NOT want to get something I can't just buy and change batteries. (I have enough crap with proprietary batteries to charge: cellphones, iPod, PS3 controllers, BlueTooth headset, etc).

So I'll be sure to post an update later when I get to try the UltraClears and once I decide which to try next.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

So I received the UltraClear glasses and 3DA-1 adapter today. Tomorrow I'll have the TV and we're a go!

The UC glasses seem comfortable, although the lenses tilt towards the ground some, which A) creates a reflection/glare on the inside if you have any lighting above you, and B) does make them ride low on prescription glasses. A co-worker tried them on over his glasses, which are more round and sit away from his eyes to begin with. I'm going to have my wife try the glasses as she has "the more modern, square, thinner from top to bottom" glasses and the UCs may fit better on those.

I'll update later.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by tritosine5G »

They still make new DLP TV's exclusively with wobulation type DigitalMicromirrorDevice. Latest incarnation is called xHD5 and quite old now. Contains almost as many mirrors as a 720p chip, but the 2D outcome supposed to be 1.4X better because of this subframe oversampling.
Breaking news on screen front meanwhile,
Hell yeah, I have the price of this rear projection material. Very very friendly price.

It's supposed to be way better than usual RPTV screens. In fact should be compared to the best of the front projection screens available. Ignores ambient light just like LCD screens. I think I get a 65" very soon ;)
-Biased for 0 Gen HMD's to hell and back must be one hundred percent hell bent bias!

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

So.............. it's all said and done. I've received my 73" DLP set........ connected the PS3 and using UltraClear DLP Link glasses. IMHO, it looks fantastic. 3DBD look quite impressive on that large screen. Half-resolution checkerboard or whatever "half-resolution" discussions aside, the end result is a very nice looking, HD 3D experience that is on par with going to the theaters. Gaming is also smokin'. Again, aside from technical discussions of 720p@60 being converted to 1080p@60 checkerboard, etc, the end result is playing 3D games on the PS3 on the DLP is awesome.

This isn't saying that movies/gaming on, say the VT25 plasmas isn't better (perhaps crisper, sharper?), but for the price, the DLP sets and the quality 2D/3D experience they provide is unmatched.

As an aside, I do really like the UltraClear glasses. As others have noted, the earpieces are very flexible plastic, which lets them effortlessly conform to your head. My wife's can wear them over her prescription glasses, which have lenses that aren't as "tall" or "round" as some lenses. Like so:

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Also, I let the boys (one is a couple of months shy of being 5, the other is around 3 1/2) watch MotorStorm 3D Rift, then some Despicable Me in 3D. They were a bit big, particularly on the 3.5 year old, however, we secured them with adjustable lanyard-style glasses holders (we bought for our sunglasses when we went white-water rafting this summer). Like these:

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So that's a very cheap, comfortable way to adjust them for kids. It also gives some insurance against accidental drops, and little greasy fingers smudging the front lenses trying to push the glasses up on their noses. We're going to leave them on the glasses, even while in their bag... so they're always "ready to go".

I will be ordering 2 (maybe 3 since now I'm in "spending" mode) more pairs to have.... that way the family can have our own, with a spare set if there is a guest, etc.....

So far, quite happy with the rig........ could see how the 82" would be nice to have. :D

Thanks to everyone in the forum that gave input/feedback, and likes to talk about this stuff..... the MTBS forums have been a wonderful place to learn and I will, of course, continue visiting to talk, discuss, and argue about anything 3D. ;)

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by cybereality »

Sounds like you got a nice setup there. Should be more than enough for watching 3D movies and playing some games. The lanyards are also great to have. I use them on the VR920 and it helps a lot to keep everything secure on my face.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by Fredz »

Thanks for the review GoldChain, nice to know that the 3D experience is very good on this setup. And happy 3D with your family... :)

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

So real quick: I'm enjoying the 73" DLP greatly! Watching a 2D blu-ray as I type this and it's so clean/clear.......

So to the point of the title of this thread. I use the THX/SMPTE viewing distance calculators, and decided to try the (I believe THX max recommended) viewing distance of 8.5'. Although my wife is going to "give it a try" before deciding (that she likely doesn't like it that close), I have no issues sitting 8.5' away from the 73" screen. It's very comfortable viewing and I feel I can really appreciate the full resolution of Blu-Rays and 1080p gaming.

As far as lens "size", with the UltraClears and I'm sure many of the others out there, this is a non-issue. Even at 8.5' from a 73" set, the UCs have no issue not "covering" the whole screen when wearing them.

I noticed when watching 3D BD or doing 3D gaming the image wasn't quite as sharp/crisp. I initially chalked it up to the wobulation and the fact that the checkerboard is used for stereo (i.e. half resolution). Still looked really good, and just last night a friend was like "The quality on this is awesome" while playing Wipeout HD in 3D. But as a test, I played a BD in 2D (Despicable Me) and simply put the glasses on (both in an off state, and again in an ON state with DLP enabled (which you can do regardless of if there is 3D content playing or not)) and found that the glasses themselves seem to cause the same slight drop in sharpness/detail whether in an on or off state. I know on HD camcorders, when I bought a wide-angle adapter, there were some lenses that were made to be able to resolve 1080 lines of resolution, and if you used a non-HD rated lens, you would get sub-par quality due to lowered resolution of the lens. So I'm wondering if anyone has done any resolution testing with the different glasses? I know most folks that have used the UltraClear glasses have said there's no difference between the Samsung/Mits glasses.... so are ALL LCD shutterglasses prone to a slight detail decrease? Just by the nature of the glasses? So IMHO, whatever quality/resolution IQ difference between half-resolution checkerboard and true 1080p 3D is masked by the glasses themselves.

Anyway sorry for rambling again! I seem to do that a lot! :D

BTW, if anyone is interested...... I picked up the WD-73C10 (same as the 73638 with a difference bezel style) for $1299 shipped. Yesterday a co-worker was at a local Ultimate Electronics store, and they had the WD-73638 for $999 and the WD-73738 for $1199!! I was a little miffed that I could've gotten it for $300 cheaper had I waited a week, but you never know. I love the quality of the set, so no regrets. Things always get cheaper... it just happened to be the week after I got mine. :(

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by cybereality »

Not all glasses are created equal. Some are more clear than others.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

cybereality wrote:Not all glasses are created equal. Some are more clear than others.
Which I would assume to be the case. I'd like to try some other brands to see if they're any clearer, but frankly if you have to pay $200 for a pair that are just marginally better as far as IQ, then I'm not sure it's worth it when considering I'm buying for 4 people (not including any guests :D )

And not having any experience with other shutterglasses (except for brief uses in stores and such), I was kind of commenting out loud that a given BD looked a clear and sharp in 3D as it did in 2D when viewed through the glasses..... in which case all of the hyperbole about 1/2 resolution checkerboard is essentially made moot. ;)

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by Fredz »

GoldChain wrote:But as a test, I played a BD in 2D (Despicable Me) and simply put the glasses on (both in an off state, and again in an ON state with DLP enabled (which you can do regardless of if there is 3D content playing or not)) and found that the glasses themselves seem to cause the same slight drop in sharpness/detail whether in an on or off state.
I wonder if the result would be the same with IR shutter glasses instead of DLP shutter glasses. As I said previously, people on AVS reported that the image had some problems (rainbowing) with these DLP glasses (in on or off state) and DLPs TV because of polarization.

Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with this, but still, I've never heard complaints about other type of shutter glasses with DLP TVs and now there are two identified problems with DLP Link glasses on this type of TVs. It could be a good idea to find a pair of IR glasses for testing.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

Fredz wrote:I wonder if the result would be the same with IR shutter glasses instead of DLP shutter glasses. As I said previously, people on AVS reported that the image had some problems (rainbowing) with these DLP glasses (in on or off state) and DLPs TV because of polarization.

Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with this, but still, I've never heard complaints about other type of shutter glasses with DLP TVs and now there are two identified problems with DLP Link glasses on this type of TVs. It could be a good idea to find a pair of IR glasses for testing.
Interestingly enough, I'd read about the rainbowing, and IIRC it was the IR glasses that were experiencing that issue (something about polarization of the glasses and the DLP screen surface)? I was aware of this, and have been watching for it..... closely, and I can honestly say I haven't experienced or see any rainbow effects off of the screen w/these glasses.... If I do, I'll be the first to make a post about it because I know that's floating around out there...

I'd like to try some IR, but not sure if I want to dump another $40+ into an emitter just to test some glasses. The sad thing is, even if I did test some IRs, it's likely be the UltraClear that I would start with as they're $59! :lol: If I knew someone that had some IRs (and emitter) that I could try on here, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I guess I could always buy some @ BestBuy and return them when done. haha!

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by Fredz »

GoldChain wrote:Interestingly enough, I'd read about the rainbowing, and IIRC it was the IR glasses that were experiencing that issue
No, this effect was due to the DLP Link glasses, that's why I told you several times that you should still consider IR glasses instead of DLP Link.
GoldChain wrote:I'd like to try some IR, but not sure if I want to dump another $40+ into an emitter just to test some glasses.
I don't think you specifically need the Ultra-Clear IR glasses, as I said previously all the IR glasses seem to have the same polarization, which is different from DLP Link glasses. You could simply ask the guy who sold you the TV if he can lend you a pair of Sony/Pana/Samsung/etc. glasses. Considering you bought a $1200 TV from him, I suppose he won't mind...

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

Fredz wrote:
GoldChain wrote:Interestingly enough, I'd read about the rainbowing, and IIRC it was the IR glasses that were experiencing that issue
No, this effect was due to the DLP Link glasses, that's why I told you several times that you should still consider IR glasses instead of DLP Link.
GoldChain wrote:I'd like to try some IR, but not sure if I want to dump another $40+ into an emitter just to test some glasses.
I don't think you specifically need the Ultra-Clear IR glasses, as I said previously all the IR glasses seem to have the same polarization, which is different from DLP Link glasses. You could simply ask the guy who sold you the TV if he can lend you a pair of Sony/Pana/Samsung/etc. glasses. Considering you bought a $1200 TV from him, I suppose he won't mind...
I gotcha......... I don't think I can borrow a pair of IR glasses from TigerDirect.com :D

So, as a side note, I'm wondering: Why in the world would they use a different polarization for IR -vs- DLP Link.... let's face it, the primary difference in the glasses is what sensor is on there to receive the sync signal. Strange they would use a polarization on DLP link glasses that is specifically going to cause this rainbow effect when used on DLP screens! While the IR glasses don't cause this effect? That makes no sense.......

Needless to say, I still haven't seen that effect..... and I'm watching for it...... any time there are a light screen/background, I'm looking at the edges, the middle, I'm tilting my head around...... nada...... but I'll keep looking and report back! :lol:

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by Fredz »

GoldChain wrote:I gotcha......... I don't think I can borrow a pair of IR glasses from TigerDirect.com :D
Ah, sorry about that, I thought you bought it in a "real" store.
GoldChain wrote:So, as a side note, I'm wondering: Why in the world would they use a different polarization for IR -vs- DLP Link....
I already explained why, read the AVS forum to have a more complete explanation.
GoldChain wrote:Needless to say, I still haven't seen that effect..... and I'm watching for it...... any time there are a light screen/background, I'm looking at the edges, the middle, I'm tilting my head around...... nada...... but I'll keep looking and report back! :lol:
From what I've read it's more evident when there is external light from the sun in the room. If you don't see any rainbowing in these conditions then it's really good news. And it would also mean that the polarization of the glasses is not responsible for the image quality degradation you are experiencing.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

And as a side note, again, regarding the original topic of viewing distance, I moved my seating so I'm ~8.5' from the 73" screen, and

A) I'm still surprised at how natural and "appropriate" that site/distance feels

and

B) I've had an HDTV and HD service for quite a while... and it always looked really good..... at this distance/screensize, it just looks incredibly good. Well, to rephrase, I'm surprised HD looks so good on such a large screen from such a "close" distance.

I believe the charts here sum it up......

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Blu-Ray as you can imagine is the best (lowest compression). Premium channels on Sat are really good, but even on those you see compression artifacting you wouldn't see on BD. What I'll call "lower-end" Premium channels (i.e. Encore) and what I'll call "Premium Cable" channels (like TNT/TBS/ESPN) seem to get the next notch down on the bandwidth allocation, then other non-premium cable channels (like HGTV/Food/VH1) seem to get the bottom of the barrel. So, not all 1080 is created equal........ =)

But, just watched Matrix Revolutions on TNT, Iron Man earlier on a "premium" cable channel, and Starship Troopers on Encore, and overall found that I kept saying in my head "Wow. this just looks really good!"

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by ZalmoxisX »

I'm looking to pick up some more DLP-Link glasses. Do the Ultra-Clear DLP Link glasses require you to use the flip mode on your TV? or do the glasses have a why to flip themselves?
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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

ZalmoxisX wrote:I'm looking to pick up some more DLP-Link glasses. Do the Ultra-Clear DLP Link glasses require you to use the flip mode on your TV? or do the glasses have a why to flip themselves?
The UltraClear DLPLink glasses do not have a button or a way to "invert" the stereo. However, I'm only aware of one pair of glasses (the Viewsonics) that do that, and they're IR. So if you have other DLPLink glasses, then using them with UltraClear glasses shouldn't present any issues.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by ZalmoxisX »

Thanks for the reply. I was just a little worried because the DLP link glasses I have now do work with the IR glasses that came in the Mitsubishi starter kit. The website selling the UltraClear DLPLink glasses said they can not be used with IR glasses because of shuttering the opposite eye, so I was a little worried at first. Well I guess I'll go and take the plunge and get a few pairs. They look almost like the ones I have, just blue.
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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

ZalmoxisX wrote:Thanks for the reply. I was just a little worried because the DLP link glasses I have now do work with the IR glasses that came in the Mitsubishi starter kit. The website selling the UltraClear DLPLink glasses said they can not be used with IR glasses because of shuttering the opposite eye, so I was a little worried at first. Well I guess I'll go and take the plunge and get a few pairs. They look almost like the ones I have, just blue.
What type of DLP Link glasses do you have now? I know the Mits sets will let you flip the stereo sync. However, that DLP sync signal sent out in the video, to my knowledge, trigger all DLP link glasses the same. The only exception to this would be the Viewsonic DLP Link glasses that allow you to flip L/R sync on the glasses themselves.

Can someone else verify if this is the case (i.e. if you're using one set of DLP link glasses, aside from the Viewsonics, then the UltraClears would sync just like the other DLP link glasses and work for him.)??

I'd contact Carl at Ultimate 3D Heaven and ask him directly before buying. YOu can reach him at: ultimate3dh@yahoo.com.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by cybereality »

GoldChain wrote:However, that DLP sync signal sent out in the video, to my knowledge, trigger all DLP link glasses the same.
There still seems to be some confusion on how DLP-Link even works. You might want to see this thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 91&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by GoldChain »

cybereality wrote:
GoldChain wrote:However, that DLP sync signal sent out in the video, to my knowledge, trigger all DLP link glasses the same.
There still seems to be some confusion on how DLP-Link even works. You might want to see this thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 91&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That thread would seem to verify my first quote (above) and some of my assumptions..... that the DLP link would only (and could only) do it's white flash on either the left or right, but not both, since doing on both wouldn't provide any "sync" info, while doing on one would.

One of those posts says you need to adjust the sync every time you start a new movie or game or there's a glitch, and that's flat out wrong. I think I had to reverse the L/R in the TV when I first did 3D, and ever since then I've never had to change it and it works for all movies, games, etc...... (now, to your point, perhaps the 3D adapter I'm using is normalizing whatever comes in since it's outputting checkerboard format.)

Oh well, it's all good.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by cybereality »

GoldChain wrote: One of those posts says you need to adjust the sync every time you start a new movie or game or there's a glitch, and that's flat out wrong. I think I had to reverse the L/R in the TV when I first did 3D, and ever since then I've never had to change it and it works for all movies, games, etc...... (now, to your point, perhaps the 3D adapter I'm using is normalizing whatever comes in since it's outputting checkerboard format.)
Well you are using a checkerboard format RPTV, so there is not a problem there. This is because the left/right sync is encoded into the transmission format (checkerboard). The problem happens with front projectors, since they are not able to encode the signal into a standard page-flipped output. So the projector itself has no idea what frame is left or right. So while it may be able to tell the glasses to switch to the right eye, it can't verify that its displaying the right image at the same time.

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Re: Viewing distance, screen size, lens size considerations

Post by ZalmoxisX »

These are the glasses that I am currently using, model VA-DD1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G2VJM6

I was hopping to buy more, but they are sold out everywhere I have been looking. They look just like the Ultra-Clear DLP Link glasses. It was just the part of the description for the glasses mentioning that they will not work with IR glasses at the same time that worried me. Everything mentioned here sounds like I'll be fine regardless of which DLP Link glasses I purchase.
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