Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

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Dom
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Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Dom »

So I updated two of my computers and got 3D vision working again with Windows 10 Release 2004. When I upgraded the install I had Nvidia drivers 425.32 installed and after the update Microsoft installed Nvidia drivers 432.00 so I had to DDU and reinstall and then hide those 432.00 Nvidia drivers again.

I have not played games yet just tested the Nvidia test floating image but the emitter and glasses sync so far. I'm staying with official 425.31 drivers for now since they are working good enough and I don't play most new games on this system anyways (just a workstation for surfing mostly and editing).
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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by russellk »

Thanks for the info!
I was reading earlier today from a couple of people on overclock.net that they were getting better overclocking and better gaming performance with this build, which I think has a never WDM version.
Anyone, I don't believe them but we'll see...
Win 10 1903 (Via 3dfix manager - Non DCH), 9700K, Gigabyte 2080Ti OC, BenQ XL2420T 3d surround, LG 3d OLED, 4k Projector (3dtvplay), WMR Odyssey+, WIn 19 1809 (425.31), Win 7 Pro x64

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by 3DNovice »

The new version of Windows 10 is version 2004 (also known as 20H1) and it includes Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) 2.7, which improves overall gaming performance, video output, and refresh rate on a multi-monitor setup.

Windows 10’s Spring 2020 update adds support for hardware-accelerated GPU scheduling, which allows video cards to manage their video memory. According to Microsoft, the feature should reduce latency and improve the average FPS of the games. It also improves the video output and reduces lag during the video playbacks.

In Windows 10 version 2004, hardware-accelerated GPU scheduling can be enabled from Settings > Graphics. Microsoft says the implementation requires Intel driver 27.20.100.7859 and NVIDIA drivers 450.12 or above.

https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/2 ... r-support/




Multi monitor refresh has been addressed as well in this release
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Windows-1 ... 143.0.html

Also added:
Shader Model 6.5
DirectX 12: Raytracing Tier 1.1, Mesh Shader, Sampler Feedback: Texture Streaming, Texture-Space Shading, Video Protected Resource Support.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by whyme466 »

Just had to rebuild my OS for a second time in less than a year. Prior to rebuild, my Windows 10 2004 version worked well at first, but eventually stopped being able to be updated (unknown reason), and different applications started having assorted problems (apps running only in admin mode, Oculus could not store games on C drive, and so on). None of the Windows troubleshooters fixed my OS problem, and I discovered that some of the repair support tools like DISM do not work with 2004 update...

After starting from factory OS default, Windows has now stopped at 1909 version. I am not being offered 2004 feature update, although I am not sure I want to update to 2004 again without support from tools like DISM. Also note that Windows now seems to have default where Restore Points are NOT automatically created - a user must manually create them.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

Hoping to set up 3D vision for the first time, since I'm switching to Nvidia based card, and am wondering if I should stay on windows 1909 version??

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by whyme466 »

@narhicfd - yes, I suggest staying with 1909 version (not migrating to 2004 yet) and, as a new 3D Vision user, starting with 3D Fix Manager - see https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 81&t=23397. I believe this great app also includes BringBack3DV feature, a necessary driver modification if using NVIDIA drivers newer than 425.31 (see https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 05&t=23752).

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

Thank you for the info wyme446! I'll read up on the so the install will go good. Any other info I need to read would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

whyme466 wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:08 am @narhicfd - yes, I suggest staying with 1909 version (not migrating to 2004 yet) and, as a new 3D Vision user, starting with 3D Fix Manager - see https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 81&t=23397. I believe this great app also includes BringBack3DV feature, a necessary driver modification if using NVIDIA drivers newer than 425.31 (see https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 05&t=23752).
So, I went ahead and puchased a gtx 1650 super, couple day ago, just as a tempory replacement for my Rx 480 AMD thats currently in my rig. Just wanted to replace the AMD card with something Nvidia, that is close in benchmark for frames per second in games. I'm going to stick with windows 1903 cause right now TriDef work perfectly with it.
Couple important questions I need answering. I'm going to completely format my hard drive to rid of all AMD then reinstall windows version 1903. Is it possible to download version 1903 that has all the updates on it that are currently installed on my windows 10?? Or, do I just have to download version 1903 and wait for it install all the current updates itself?? I ask this cause TriDef doesn't work well with base download of version 1903. However, as more updates were released, over time, for version 1903 it managed to fix the problem TriDef had and now works great. I want to be able to use TriDef as well as 3D vision if possible. Later on I might give windows 10 version 1909 a go.
Second, after installing version 1903 what setting and things should I turn of so my Windows won't force my computer to download or install some program that might break 3D vision. I don't want windows forcing an install of of a display driver or something a long the lines of that. Do you recommend any 2nd party software that gives me more controller of updates outside of the windows 10 settings.
Lastly, will doing a system restore work at fixing a problem that came from an instillation of something window 10 did or What I may have done. Should I do a system back up every couple of weeks or so?
I know these are a lot of questions but I want to really be careful in maintaining 3D gameplay for as long as possible. What are some of the things you do???

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by schwing »

    For the second question you can treat your 1903 build as an offline solution and then dual boot to a normal, online one (meaning you don't care if it updates). Here's a thread I remember where our community discussed options, but there are others elsewhere in the forum. I heard of a program that makes it easier, but I forgot the name of it.
Win 10 v1909 / 1x Nvidia 980Ti GPU (v442.19, 1080p)

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by whyme466 »

Good luck with your rebuilding process. In my recent rebuild experience, my Windows versions went from 1809 updates to an integrated 1909 update, skipping 1903. Not sure how to force a specific version like 1903...

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

whyme466 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:45 am Good luck with your rebuilding process. In my recent rebuild experience, my Windows versions went from 1809 updates to an integrated 1909 update, skipping 1903. Not sure how to force a specific version like 1903...
I have windows version 1903 on a disk that I downloaded from Microsoft site while back. All I did was just install it, but unlike yours, it hasn't done a force install of 1909 or 2004 version. Maybe I have some setting on that keeps or something.
So, if you have windows 10 version 1909 installed does that mean you use the BringBack 3DV program to update your Nvidia display so you can still use 3D vision with the new drivers?? Do you allow windows to install updates freely or do you have certain settings turned off so Microsoft can't force updates on you?

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Dom »

Hi, I know a few things that can help you.

Here is something for windows updates, after you install the updates you need then disable the service:
Option 1: Stop The Windows Update Service
Open the Run command (Win + R), in it type: services. msc and press enter.
From the Services list which appears find the Windows Update service and open it.
In 'Startup Type' (under the 'General' tab) change it to 'Disabled'
Restart.
https://www.google.com/search?q=stop+wi ... e&ie=UTF-8

Or goto windows update in settings and set the metered connection to not to download over metered connection.

You can run BringBack 3DV on your new install with non DCH drivers: look here for the "standard drivers" https://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us

viewtopic.php?f=105&t=23276&start=40

Here is an windows 10 iso downloader program on this site: https://www.heidoc.net/joomla/technolog ... nload-tool
You won't need to hide driver updates for Nvidia on windows 10 or use this program: https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/hel ... -in-window

Or get it from my webserver: http://zebritatechnologies.publicvm.com ... de.diagcab

Or you can dual boot windows 10 OS one hardisk windows 10 2004 for online play and another boot on a seperate drive for windows 10 1903 that is not connected to the internet.

I think most people here disconnect their internet for playing single player 3d games
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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

Dom wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:50 pm Hi, I know a few things that can help you.

Here is something for windows updates, after you install the updates you need then disable the service:
Option 1: Stop The Windows Update Service
Open the Run command (Win + R), in it type: services. msc and press enter.
From the Services list which appears find the Windows Update service and open it.
In 'Startup Type' (under the 'General' tab) change it to 'Disabled'
Restart.
https://www.google.com/search?q=stop+wi ... e&ie=UTF-8

Or goto windows update in settings and set the metered connection to not to download over metered connection.

You can run BringBack 3DV on your new install with non DCH drivers: look here for the "standard drivers" https://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us

viewtopic.php?f=105&t=23276&start=40

Here is an windows 10 iso downloader program on this site: https://www.heidoc.net/joomla/technolog ... nload-tool
You won't need to hide driver updates for Nvidia on windows 10 or use this program: https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/hel ... -in-window

Or get it from my webserver: http://zebritatechnologies.publicvm.com ... de.diagcab

Or you can dual boot windows 10 OS one hardisk windows 10 2004 for online play and another boot on a seperate drive for windows 10 1903 that is not connected to the internet.

I think most people here disconnect their internet for playing single player 3d games

THANK YOU DON for all the help! I have 2 weeks before my gtx 1650 super comes in as a temp replacement for the Rx 480 that's currently in computer and am doing as much research possible. Thanks again.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by whyme466 »

I use my 1909 OS (and the 2004 version that preceded it) exclusively for VR gaming, and use my dual-boot 1809 OS for 3D Vision gaming with 425.31 driver (do not use BringBack3DV).

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

Dom wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:50 pm Hi, I know a few things that can help you.

Here is something for windows updates, after you install the updates you need then disable the service:
Option 1: Stop The Windows Update Service
Open the Run command (Win + R), in it type: services. msc and press enter.
From the Services list which appears find the Windows Update service and open it.
In 'Startup Type' (under the 'General' tab) change it to 'Disabled'
Restart.
https://www.google.com/search?q=stop+wi ... e&ie=UTF-8

Or goto windows update in settings and set the metered connection to not to download over metered connection.

You can run BringBack 3DV on your new install with non DCH drivers: look here for the "standard drivers" https://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us

viewtopic.php?f=105&t=23276&start=40

Here is an windows 10 iso downloader program on this site: https://www.heidoc.net/joomla/technolog ... nload-tool
You won't need to hide driver updates for Nvidia on windows 10 or use this program: https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/hel ... -in-window

Or get it from my webserver: http://zebritatechnologies.publicvm.com ... de.diagcab

Or you can dual boot windows 10 OS one hardisk windows 10 2004 for online play and another boot on a seperate drive for windows 10 1903 that is not connected to the internet.

I think most people here disconnect their internet for playing single player 3d games
Quick question on the updates. If after disableing windows updates then later on decide to go ahead, download and install all the updates available will setting a windows restore point before the installastion be a solution to fix my computer if one of the updates messes up 3D vision. Will that windows restore point set my computer back EXACTLY as it was before installing all previous updates and cause 3D vision to work again.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Dom »

I wouldn't rely on windows system restore, its never worked that well and will always corrupt your system eventually.
I would install windows 10 1903 with the updates you want and need then don't install anymore updates at all. This will leave your c: drive with something like 20-30 GB for the windows intallation and maybe a few apps that you need in c:\programfiles

Get another backup drive like a usb 3.0 120 GB or more SSD or normal USB external drive. They can be around $40-80 dollars I think. And get some backup software or use windows 10 back up: https://www.google.com/search?q=windows ... e&ie=UTF-8

To create a full backup of Windows 10 with the system image tool, use these steps:
Open Settings.
Click on Update & Security.
Click on Backup.
Under the "Looking for an older backup?" section, click the Go to Backup and Restore (Windows 7) option. ...
On the left pane, click the Create a system image option.

Then if you accidentally install a newer windows version or some update you did not want then you have the full image available anytime.
If you install some more updates later onto your windows 10 1903 install then a windows 10 update feature for 1909 or 2004 might come onto your windows update screen and you will have a hard time avoiding it.

Pretty soon windows 10 1903 will not receive updates and will EOL from microsoft.
Its really complicated to avoid windows 10 updates.

Here is some more info on disabling updates: https://github.com/WereDev/Wu10Man
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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

Dom wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:41 pm I wouldn't rely on windows system restore, its never worked that well and will always corrupt your system eventually.
I would install windows 10 1903 with the updates you want and need then don't install anymore updates at all. This will leave your c: drive with something like 20-30 GB for the windows intallation and maybe a few apps that you need in c:\programfiles

Get another backup drive like a usb 3.0 120 GB or more SSD or normal USB external drive. They can be around $40-80 dollars I think. And get some backup software or use windows 10 back up: https://www.google.com/search?q=windows ... e&ie=UTF-8

To create a full backup of Windows 10 with the system image tool, use these steps:
Open Settings.
Click on Update & Security.
Click on Backup.
Under the "Looking for an older backup?" section, click the Go to Backup and Restore (Windows 7) option. ...
On the left pane, click the Create a system image option.

Then if you accidentally install a newer windows version or some update you did not want then you have the full image available anytime.
If you install some more updates later onto your windows 10 1903 install then a windows 10 update feature for 1909 or 2004 might come onto your windows update screen and you will have a hard time avoiding it.

Pretty soon windows 10 1903 will not receive updates and will EOL from microsoft.
Its really complicated to avoid windows 10 updates.

Here is some more info on disabling updates: https://github.com/WereDev/Wu10Man
I've asked this else where, but is there really a reason to format my hard drive simply cause I'm going from an AMD card to Nvidia for 3D vision?? If not, then what program would be good at riding my computer of all the AMD stuff so as to not cause any driver issues with 3DV?

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Dom »

You can try not to reinstall windows 10 upon your GFX card upgrade but you may have system instability because there is reminants of cache from AMD and both Nvidia and AMD fight for motherboard space in the chips.

https://www.wagnardsoft.com/forums/view ... f=5&t=3216

What I would do when you switch cards is clear your CMOS on your motherboard too when its turned off.

1. Use DDU in windows safe mode to uninstall AMD drivers, then shutdown computer.
2. Take out AMD card and clear the motherboard CMOS.
3. Put in Nvidia upgrade card and boot system, go into BIOS and make sure its all setup properly and save the BIOS settings and exit.
4. Load windows and install Nvidia drivers with BringBack 3DV or try and use Nvidia 425.31 first (reboot after the drivers are installed)
If windows update installs Nvidia drivers before you can then you have to use DDU and go into the settings in there and select "do not automatically install windows update drivers" you will see that setting. (make sure to always uninstall drivers in windows safe mode)

You might be new to DDU, so to use it properly first download it and extract it with 7zip or some extractor then run it for the first time then exit it.
Then load it again and it will give you the options to restart in safe mode. Choose that option and then it will reboot your computer into windows safe mode. It will then load up and then you select on the side menu of it AMD drivers then click the option "clean and shutdown".

When you install newer driver after you get your new Nvidia card installed you would choose in DDU "clean and restart" when your in windows 10 safe mode.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

Dom wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:22 pm You can try not to reinstall windows 10 upon your GFX card upgrade but you may have system instability because there is reminants of cache from AMD and both Nvidia and AMD fight for motherboard space in the chips.

https://www.wagnardsoft.com/forums/view ... f=5&t=3216

What I would do when you switch cards is clear your CMOS on your motherboard too when its turned off.

1. Use DDU in windows safe mode to uninstall AMD drivers, then shutdown computer.
2. Take out AMD card and clear the motherboard CMOS.
3. Put in Nvidia upgrade card and boot system, go into BIOS and make sure its all setup properly and save the BIOS settings and exit.
4. Load windows and install Nvidia drivers with BringBack 3DV or try and use Nvidia 425.31 first (reboot after the drivers are installed)
If windows update installs Nvidia drivers before you can then you have to use DDU and go into the settings in there and select "do not automatically install windows update drivers" you will see that setting. (make sure to always uninstall drivers in windows safe mode)

You might be new to DDU, so to use it properly first download it and extract it with 7zip or some extractor then run it for the first time then exit it.
Then load it again and it will give you the options to restart in safe mode. Choose that option and then it will reboot your computer into windows safe mode. It will then load up and then you select on the side menu of it AMD drivers then click the option "clean and shutdown".

When you install newer driver after you get your new Nvidia card installed you would choose in DDU "clean and restart" when your in windows 10 safe mode.

Dom
Hey Dom! Just want you know that I got everything installed and it work great! I decided to use 3D fix manager instead of the BB3DV, by the way. Followed your instructions in using DDU in deleting all AMD drivers and had no issues.
My next step is learning how everything works in 3D fix manager and it's settings. Tried some games and it looked good. Had some minor issues in getting resolution right and what not, but Im sure as I come no know the program better and with help of the community I'll get it down.
Haven't tried TriDef yet and prob won't mess around with that till I get better with 3D vision.
Oh, can't remember if I posted this or not but my hardware specs of what I'm using for 3D is:

Optoma DH101projector and DLP glasses

https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/pr ... c_8933.pdf

AMD 8370
8 Gib of ram(need to get another 4 gig stick)
Rtx 2060 6gb ram
System is pretty out of date but it runs what I like to play..for now

Another quick question. Ive been running on windows version 1903. I just realized that Windows update downloaded version 2004 and is wanting to install it. I put a pause on the updates till sep 3rd so for now it cant install it.
My plan was to update to version 1909. I downloaded the version 1909 iso image and was going to do it that way.
Before the update unpauses I'm going to install version 1909. After I install version 1909 will it still try to install the already downloaded version 2004?? If I can't keep it from installing version 2004 what do I do to get back to version 1909?

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Dom »

Once you install a newer version of windows 10 you can revert back to the old version I think in "recovery"
You might be better off using windows 10 2004 unless you can stop those updates.
One way would to make a backup drive of windows 10 1903 or 1909.
If you install windows 10 1909 i am not sure if the windows 10 2004 update feature will stop or not. I doubt it for very long.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by friendlinzh »

just rebuild my computer,3d vision works very well.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by narhicfd »

friendlinzh wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:45 pm just rebuild my computer,3d vision works very well.
What version of windows are you on??

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by bo3bber »

Just a data point- I've rebuilt my main computer from scratch, using the 2004 update. Since I do a lot of HelixVision support, I need to have a system that matches what most users are forced into, otherwise I'd use an older version.

However, it's working fine across the board. 3D Vision is working fine with driver 452.06, 1080ti. I only use the HelixVision/3DFM game specific Schwing hack, not the global hack or BringBack3DV.

Nothing too annoying about 2004, although hibernate did not work properly and corrupted my 8T RAID0. But you know Microsoft, quality is job none. After a restore from backup and disabling hibernate, everything is working smoothly.

For VR or HelixVision users, the GPU scheduling with a latest driver does smooth out the GPU usage and can make HelixVision run more smoothly.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Losti »

So it Sounds save to alow the downloaded 2004 Update that install is in hold currently??

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by helifax »

Losti wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:46 am So it Sounds save to alow the downloaded 2004 Update that install is in hold currently??
Yes, it is safe from my POV. I am mostly using my Vk3DVision, but I did try some games in OGL3DVision, some DX11 ones and HelixVision with Vulkan 8-)
I can say the GPU scheduler that comes with Win 10 2004 does a very nice job, especially in HelixVision (VR)! :geek:

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Necropants »

Yeah it's probably okay for most people. (although have that fixed the SSD bug yet that was breaking drives or whatever?)
For me I am a little more wary moving on from 1809 where I do not have to use the dll Hak as I play alot of multuplayer games.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Genesis5 »

Just curious. Is anybody running 2004 with driver 425.31 I am using 1909 right now and updated to the latest 450 drivers and it didn't play nice with a few of my games that I play in SBS. So I went back to 425.31 and all is fine again. Still holding at 1909 but wouldn't mind updating to 2004 if 425.31 works alright with it.

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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Dom »

Genesis5 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:09 pm Just curious. Is anybody running 2004 with driver 425.31 I am using 1909 right now and updated to the latest 450 drivers and it didn't play nice with a few of my games that I play in SBS. So I went back to 425.31 and all is fine again. Still holding at 1909 but wouldn't mind updating to 2004 if 425.31 works alright with it.
At first when Windows 10 2004 came out I was using Nvidia drivers 425.31 and they were working ok. Then few weeks later I had some updates and went to use 3d vision and it was all messed up. So I blame the updates, I could of reinstalled the 425.31 drivers but I just used BringBack 3DV and used the latest Nvidia drivers with that program.

I think some others here on mtbs3d.com use 425.31 with windows 10 1809 but most use the latest drivers with Windows 10 2004.
If you still use 425.31 with Windows 10 2004 you will have to hide the Nvidia drivers that windows update puts on.

Dom
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Genesis5
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Re: Windows 10 Ver. 2004 May 2020 update with 3D Vision

Post by Genesis5 »

Dom wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:37 am
Genesis5 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:09 pm Just curious. Is anybody running 2004 with driver 425.31 I am using 1909 right now and updated to the latest 450 drivers and it didn't play nice with a few of my games that I play in SBS. So I went back to 425.31 and all is fine again. Still holding at 1909 but wouldn't mind updating to 2004 if 425.31 works alright with it.
At first when Windows 10 2004 came out I was using Nvidia drivers 425.31 and they were working ok. Then few weeks later I had some updates and went to use 3d vision and it was all messed up. So I blame the updates, I could of reinstalled the 425.31 drivers but I just used BringBack 3DV and used the latest Nvidia drivers with that program.

I think some others here on mtbs3d.com use 425.31 with windows 10 1809 but most use the latest drivers with Windows 10 2004.
If you still use 425.31 with Windows 10 2004 you will have to hide the Nvidia drivers that windows update puts on.

Dom
Thanks a lot for the reply Dom! I appreciate it! Yeah I tried a 450 driver installed with 3DFM and pretty much everything work. I did notice that a few games were crashing on launch so I tried starting them with 3DFM and noticed that it would install another file to get them to launch. I am sure if I spent more time with the new drivers and 3DFM I could work out some of the small problems I had with a couple of games.

Mostly I was just curious to know if anyone was using 425.31 and 2004 with any success. I had read somewhere that 2004 doesn't really work well with drivers under 450. Thank you for confirming that. 1909 is still supported until April so I still have a bit of time before updating.

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