new 100hz lcdTv or samsung3d?

Post by **jackeberg** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:01 pm

Hi! new here. I have read alot about s3d the last couple of days and it sure sounds interesting.
Would the new 100mhz lcd tv´s be able to run s3d?the iz3d monitors are a bit too small for immersion.
The new samsung3d sounds good too but it´s not available in europe.

I am developing a game and would like to make it s3d with wii headtracking and graphics enhanced for s3d.

I hope nvidia get their poop together in january with good drivers, a bit worried since s3d users equals pretty much 0% userbase and money.
But with the samsungs and stuff coming they must see the potential, I hope.

Post by **pixel67** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:27 pm

Welcome aboard, Jackeberg! I am not familiar with any Consumer Level 100Hz LCD Displays that support 3D. You mention that the IZ3D wouldn't offer good immersion based on its size, however 22 inches is plenty big enough to offer a great experience. I used to have a 20in CRT with shutterglasses years ago and used a fresnel lens to allow a higher FOV. Not sure if this would work with the IZ3D Polarization method, but don't see why it wouldn't. Check out the following link for more info, or just google for "3d gaming with fresnel lens" for dozens of links.

http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/icetec_v3/index.htm

Sorry to hear the new Samsungs aren't available in the UK. I have been happy with mine but the driver situation has been quite frustrating. All these new games (Bioshock, Crysis, Call of Duty 4) and I can't play a single one in 3D yet... Hopefully this will be changing soon!

Cheers!
PiXeL

Post by **jackeberg** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:01 am

I guess the thing I am after is more of an group immersion thing. Like when you are watching a movie or playing a console game on a big screen tv. The wii would not sell crazy amounts without the sofa factor. Iz3d sounds great but it is more a single pc thing. I am also interested in starting a 3d café game/movie place but without drivers that would be stupid.

I also believe that the 8800 cards bring power that enable s3d to the mainstream market. It is a shame the 3850 Ati budget card can not handle stereo since it got all the power for it. Games like fear run at close to 150-200 fps with this generations cards and only s3d can truely push gfx forward if it were not for drivers. I am a bit curious if Direct X has any plans for a unified standar, that would be great.

Post by **chrisdfw** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:30 pm

Unfortunately. fresnel lenses will not work with a polarized s3d setup. They will work with a CRT or any other non-polarized method. I tried it with 2 LCD's and a mirror in a planar setup that used the LCDs built in polarization and the fresnel completely scrambled up the polarized light.

Post by **jackeberg** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:48 pm

But the new led screens should work fine when they get some higher hz, or am I confusing myself?

Post by **pixel67** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:31 pm

Nice to know about the fresnel situation with polarization, chrisdfw. Jackeberg, you may want to research dual projection or single active projection if you are wanting pure screen size. Lots of folks here use that method with varying degrees of success. I used a single one, Infocus X3, for a while with good results. Check out some of the other posts here for more info on projection.

PiXeL

Post by **jackeberg** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:50 am

Yes, I´ve read up on projection. But the costs came close to 40k-k50 $. The silverscreen and lens alone almost gave me an heartattack.
What are the cheapest projectors for this? Is there any increase in quality compared to samsungs 1920p tv´s ( half s3d).

It would be great if I could put five of the lowres together in a half globe (maybe it distorts 3d?)... 3600 res limit and 3 is max I believe. One can dream.
But the nice part is I can allways buy one tv and add others later.

Post by **LukePC1** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:52 pm

I once read, that the Problem with LCD is not only the low refresh rate. They seem to be not even able to show a good 3D immage in 75hz (if you ignore the flickering).
The technology of most LCD panels makes each row change after the other. After the last row the first again. There is ca. 0 time between the first and last row. If you add latency you get shutters, which shut when the upper half shows a completly different picture (for the other eye) than the lower half.

ED claims to have a workaround, but you'd have to use their drivers - and noone said they have good compatibility (they are much worse than Nvidia's old ones).
The workaround might be, that the shutters aren't open half of the time, but just a small moment, when nearly the whole picture is shown --> lower brigtness...

You might want to check this. They made a cheap settup with a projector not 50k$ but 1-2k$
Quite a difference, huh?

By the way: You could make a 'VR room' with light transmittive screens as 'walls' and mount DLP projectors on the other side (or with mirrors). In this way you can project an image to each side

Post by **pixel67** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:41 am

jackeberg wrote:Yes, I´ve read up on projection. But the costs came close to 40k-k50 $. The silverscreen and lens alone almost gave me an heartattack.
What are the cheapest projectors for this? Is there any increase in quality compared to samsungs 1920p tv´s ( half s3d).

It would be great if I could put five of the lowres together in a half globe (maybe it distorts 3d?)... 3600 res limit and 3 is max I believe. One can dream.
But the nice part is I can allways buy one tv and add others later.

I haven't tried a passive projection system so I really can't comment on the quality comparisons between it and true DLP3D. I can compare the image quality between my old X3 and the Samsung but it really isn't a fair comparison. The Samsung blows it away by a considerable margin with zero ghosting and true HD 1080P resolution, not half S3D as you mentioned. I have performed numerous resolution tests with my system using FRAPS screenshots and TriDef Stereo screenshots of the very same frame and there isn't any difference in the "perceived" resolution. Yes, there is a difference in the rendered resolution but your eyes perceive true HD. This is quite different from line interlacing where the reduction in rendered resolution is visible to the user. TriDef's drivers capture 3 different formats simultaneously (anaglyph, side by side, and TriDef photo which allows you to adjust depth and convergence on the fly) and the images appear identical to the FRAPS screenshot regardless of how they are viewed. I will post a few examples in the Gallery in a bit. It really is a fantastic technology and would be cool to see it used in smaller, more affordable displays (sub 50in). Display technology wise, I think it is one of the best out there. Drivers are the real issue here as with other solutions.

PiXeL

Post by **LukePC1** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:33 am

I've got a question: You made screenshoots with the program? Are you shure the output is captured? I think the PC will just make a copy of the rendered Shoot --> Full 1080p, because the graphic cards renders it, what the TV shows does the computer not know!

Try to make Pictures with a Digital camera. Maybe some trough the Glasses and/or without. You might go realy near to the Screen, to see the single Pixels better.

Post by **jackeberg** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:14 pm

1080p would be a bit heavy on the gfxcard anyway. But it sure wouldn´t hurt to have the option for future hardware. Nvidias new dualcore cards will pack quite a punch.
I might have to take a boat trip, strap it to my back and carry it home. Any working driver should be good enough for some cool minigames. I´ve heard that Ati will dedicate much of it´s developers to writing some truly great drivers instead of hardware for a short period of time. Who know maybe 3d is finally included.

It was supose to be 4-5k$ not 40-50 he he...

the tomshardware link was very interesting. So I can use a ordinary screen instead of a silverscreen. I guess the silverscreen is for passive projection.

Post by **pixel67** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:57 pm

LukePC1 wrote:I've got a question: You made screenshoots with the program? Are you shure the output is captured? I think the PC will just make a copy of the rendered Shoot --> Full 1080p, because the graphic cards renders it, what the TV shows does the computer not know!

Try to make Pictures with a Digital camera. Maybe some trough the Glasses and/or without. You might go realy near to the Screen, to see the single Pixels better.

Not really true. The TV only enables or disables the wobulation, the content encoding is still done on the pc with the tridef drivers. Rather than reposting pictures, click on the hyperlinks above the following for screenshots. http://www.tridef.com/3dgames/3d-games.html

taking a picture through the glasses wouldn't work because you would only see one image of the stereo pair. The only way to really prove it is to see it for yourself in 3D. I posted a picture of quake 4 a while back that shows the checkerboard pattern but even this is only one frame. Like I said before, visually I can't see any difference in resolution between 2D and 3D but there really isn't any way for me to prove it. All of the captured screenshots can be reloaded into 3D using the Tridef Media Player and they look identical to the ingame experience.

PiXeL

Post by **jackeberg** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:20 am

Huh.. tridef drivers are required for gaming on the Samsung?

They are selling drivers for each game at 5$ mostly old games. Is that needed?

Post by **LukePC1** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:55 am

Yea, but maybe the Digi-Cam is better than a human eye - or at least, it doesn't get dammaged, when extreamly near to the Screen. You should be able to record the Appearence of the different Pixels and/or the Picture.
On top of that you have a proof for the non existence of the 'ghosting'.

Maybe you're able to make a shoot with long lighting (e.g. 1/60sec) so you can see a part of the S-3D picture in the left eye and the other part in the right eye --> Crosseye or paralel View. Should get Crosseye, if you turn the glasses upside down

I've seen the Q4 picture - and can produce something like it, with Nvidia - if I use the hack for Checkerboard pattern.

I wouldn't see a difference between 1920x1200 and half of it either, I think...
Imho 1024x is quite enough (at least, if you get the full resolution of it - and it neccessary a little FSAA

) - if the games support it. There are games which don't support 800x600 so one day maybe they don't support 1024x...

Post by **jackeberg** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:04 am

It should be 1080p since if game runs lower than this resolution ghosting appears, somehow.

For now I think I´ll try out a projector. I could always buy another one later for passive.
But what are the most important things to have?

I will go for 1280x720 natural resolution. The lumen is pretty low on most of them 1000-1500
contrast 2000-6000. Lumen is most importan? 85hz ofcourse.

Post by **chrisdfw** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:50 pm

Actually, most DLP projectors have issues with color problems at 85hz or don't work at all at that refresh. None of them work for stereo 3d at 85hz at 1280 resolution. 1024 is the best you can do.

I use and recommend the Sharp Xr-10x that you can get off ebay for under $600 and it has 2000 lumens.

See this study for similar projectors:

http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

One additional thing you will need is a way to invert the 3d signal that goes to the shutter glasses or wear them upside down. They are one frame behind.

You can read about this and get a product that will flip it:

http://www.3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm

Post by **Xerion** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:06 pm

Hmm wonder if i should get a xr-10x. There are some for 599 euro in germany, so something I can actually get

Not gonna buy that ridiculous product for something that can be done by just reversing 2 wires though :p

Post by **jackeberg** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:50 pm

Xr-10x can be had really cheap on ebay for 400$, now that is tempting...

I should be able to use two of them for 2048x1536 right? 1024x768 is a bit low.

Post by **pixel67** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:21 pm

jackeberg wrote:It should be 1080p since if game runs lower than this resolution ghosting appears, somehow.

For now I think I´ll try out a projector. I could always buy another one later for passive.
But what are the most important things to have?

I will go for 1280x720 natural resolution. The lumen is pretty low on most of them 1000-1500
contrast 2000-6000. Lumen is most importan? 85hz ofcourse.

Hi Guys, I will have to crank up the digi-cam this weekend once I have some free time to experiment. I am affraid I don't understand the comment about ghosting at lower resolutions. I have run many games at 1280x1024 without issue. The DDD drivers are required for games, but you can also use peter wimmers excellent player for viewing clips. I have been experimenting lately with No Limits Rollercoaster simulator (I REALLY miss this program with the Nvidia drivers). Since I am unable to view this in real time with the DDD drivers, the latest update to the game allows you to record an AVI file. Once this is done, I can play back the file in TriDef's Media Player using their realtime 2D >3D conversion process and the results aren't half bad! Not as consistent as native stereo but definitely good enough to give a decent 3D experience. It takes about 5 minutes to record a clip at 1080P with AA maxed and eats up 30GB of hard drive space, but the end result is very impressive. Even works on other...umm..."video clips".

The trial version is compatible with just about every type of S3D display out there except for IZ3D. Definitely helps fill the void caused by lack of true s3D content.

PiXeL

Post by **jackeberg** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:16 am

Some users had issues with ghosting when playing. The support said this could be because the game was not runing native 1080p and had to upconvert the image. Not running in native resolution will always cause degrading image quality. (less on modern screens). Most likely the samsung is true 1080p because of this. (good). Since you haven´t noticed, it should be uncommon (nice).

If I have to pay for and use special drivers DDD and samsung is a no go for me. But for people mainly into movies and some games, the samsung sounds great. On the DDD drivers page there are only old games, I take it it can not play new games?

Post by **Xerion** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:33 am

jackeberg wrote:Xr-10x can be had really cheap on ebay for 400$, now that is tempting...

I should be able to use two of them for 2048x1536 right? 1024x768 is a bit low.

2x 1024x768 would give 2048x768 (or 1024x1536), for 2048x1536 you'd need 4, and then I don't see how you could make it work. For active stereo to be possible you need to sync to the refresh. Setting multiple projectors to the same refresh rate isn't the same thing, they would most probably still refresh at different times, just with the same interval. Also stereodrivers don't support multiple monitors as far as I know. What might work is using a Dual- or TripleHead2Go from matrox, for driving 2 (or 3) beamers horizontally next to eachother, I read about that working iirc, lemme see if I can find it again.

Post by **pixel67** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:24 pm

jackeberg wrote:Some users had issues with ghosting when playing. The support said this could be because the game was not runing native 1080p and had to upconvert the image. Not running in native resolution will always cause degrading image quality. (less on modern screens). Most likely the samsung is true 1080p because of this. (good). Since you haven´t noticed, it should be uncommon (nice).

If I have to pay for and use special drivers DDD and samsung is a no go for me. But for people mainly into movies and some games, the samsung sounds great. On the DDD drivers page there are only old games, I take it it can not play new games?

I haven't seen the issues with ghosting. Quite the contrary, my experience has been quite positive regarding ghosting.
I agree with the driver issue as I too was hoping to have more supported games by now. Hopefully Nvidia will have something to add before long, maybe not. There really hasn't been any communication on what types of displays they will and will not support in future driver releases.

PiXeL

Post by **Xerion** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:42 pm

Xerion wrote:
jackeberg wrote:Xr-10x can be had really cheap on ebay for 400$, now that is tempting...

I should be able to use two of them for 2048x1536 right? 1024x768 is a bit low.
2x 1024x768 would give 2048x768 (or 1024x1536), for 2048x1536 you'd need 4, and then I don't see how you could make it work. For active stereo to be possible you need to sync to the refresh. Setting multiple projectors to the same refresh rate isn't the same thing, they would most probably still refresh at different times, just with the same interval. Also stereodrivers don't support multiple monitors as far as I know. What might work is using a Dual- or TripleHead2Go from matrox, for driving 2 (or 3) beamers horizontally next to eachother, I read about that working iirc, lemme see if I can find it again.

Found it: here

Guess it works with the TH2GO, something for me to consider in the future. Just bought a single XR10X :p

Post by **jackeberg** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:02 am

gah! What has happened to my mathfunctions, scary.

2048x768 would not be nice. Is there no widescreen projector functioning well with s3d?
Widescreen feels like an important aspect of 3d. But the odds of buying a random working 85hz projector for s3d is pretty much nil.

Post by **chrisjarram** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:26 am

chrisdfw wrote:Actually, most DLP projectors have issues with color problems at 85hz or don't work at all at that refresh. None of them work for stereo 3d at 85hz at 1280 resolution. 1024 is the best you can do.

I use and recommend the Sharp Xr-10x that you can get off ebay for under $600 and it has 2000 lumens.

See this study for similar projectors:

http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

One additional thing you will need is a way to invert the 3d signal that goes to the shutter glasses or wear them upside down. They are one frame behind.

You can read about this and get a product that will flip it:

http://www.3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm

Hi Chrisdfw,

I just got one of these with the ED glasses (I have both wired and wireless) but there is a terrible red ghosting due to the slight time offset - have you seen this too, and if so have you been able to fix it?

Would be EXTREMELY grateful if you can help!!

Post by **The_Doctor** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:26 am

I was talking to him the other day because I have a lot of tinting at 85Hz with an xr-10x-L. He didn't have any problems at all. What does your ghosting look like and how can you tell it's because of a "sligh time offset"? Is it only happening at 85HZ?

chrisjarram wrote:
chrisdfw wrote:Actually, most DLP projectors have issues with color problems at 85hz or don't work at all at that refresh. None of them work for stereo 3d at 85hz at 1280 resolution. 1024 is the best you can do.

I use and recommend the Sharp Xr-10x that you can get off ebay for under $600 and it has 2000 lumens.

See this study for similar projectors:

http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

One additional thing you will need is a way to invert the 3d signal that goes to the shutter glasses or wear them upside down. They are one frame behind.

You can read about this and get a product that will flip it:

http://www.3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm
Hi Chrisdfw,

I just got one of these with the ED glasses (I have both wired and wireless) but there is a terrible red ghosting due to the slight time offset - have you seen this too, and if so have you been able to fix it?

Would be EXTREMELY grateful if you can help!!

Post by **chrisjarram** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:33 am

Hi,

Interesting - well I am actually using the XR-10X-L model myself, as far I was concerned this is pretty much exactly the same model as the XR-10X?

The 'ghosting' is basically a red ghost in each eye which is an overlap from the other eyes image. This is a colour-wheel offset and afaik is to do with timing.. This is at 1024 768 85hz (and happens at all other rates also).

What is the 'tinting' you are experiencing with the the xr-10xl? If you run the NVidia test app what do you see, a red offset like me or something different? (e.g. a slightly different colour image in each eye).

I'm sure we can get to the bottom of this!

Thanks,
Chris

The_Doctor wrote:I was talking to him the other day because I have a lot of tinting at 85Hz with an xr-10x-L. He didn't have any problems at all. What does your ghosting look like and how can you tell it's because of a "sligh time offset"? Is it only happening at 85HZ?

chrisjarram wrote:
chrisdfw wrote:Actually, most DLP projectors have issues with color problems at 85hz or don't work at all at that refresh. None of them work for stereo 3d at 85hz at 1280 resolution. 1024 is the best you can do.

I use and recommend the Sharp Xr-10x that you can get off ebay for under $600 and it has 2000 lumens.

See this study for similar projectors:

http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

One additional thing you will need is a way to invert the 3d signal that goes to the shutter glasses or wear them upside down. They are one frame behind.

You can read about this and get a product that will flip it:

http://www.3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm
Hi Chrisdfw,

I just got one of these with the ED glasses (I have both wired and wireless) but there is a terrible red ghosting due to the slight time offset - have you seen this too, and if so have you been able to fix it?

Would be EXTREMELY grateful if you can help!!

Post by **The_Doctor** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:57 pm

I have no red overflow at all, just tinting at 85 HZ. Nvidia 3d test app looks perfect, even at 85HZ.

The L version has a lower wattage bulb that is about $100 cheaper than the "regular" bulb. You can't interchange them. It is also a little smaller and has lower wattage outputs. Lumens are lower on the eco-settings (1500 vs 1750). Look at www.projectorcentral.com and search for xr-10x and xr-10xl. Other than that they seem to be the same.

I have started a thread about it http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1144, maybe we should not mess this one up with nonrelated stuff.