3D source question

[VeJ]

Hello,

I'm looking to purchase a 3D capable projector (considering the ViewSonic PJD6531w). The projector supports 3D-DLP and Nvidia 3D vision. The easiest for me to understand is Nvidia: just adjust the Nvidia software, and you should be able to play back games and movies in 3D (if the content is providing this).

But for 3D-DLP, what are the possible sources? The hdmi version of the projector is 1.3, but some sources say 3D over hdmi 1.3 is possible:
Sony's Blu-ray players do 3D in 1080p even with HDMI 1.3 and hdmi overview on Wikipedia.
Other sources claim you need hdmi 1.4 for 3D. So how to find out if could you connect a 3D bluray player to a 3D capable DLP projector and see 3D?
And what if you want to use a computer as a source but want to use 3D-DLP... How can you get it to send a 3D signal on its output (e.g. for games or blueray)? Or this is also in the nvidia drivers?

Thanks!

Jörg

[cybereality]

You cannot use existing 3D-DLP displays directly with 3D BluRay players (AFAIK) since that requires HDMI 1.4. You should, however, be able to use a PC with a Blu-Ray player to play the movie. However this is not confirmed and no software currently supports this. However several companies like Nvidia, ATI and Cyberlink have said they have plans to support this. In all likelyhood Peter Wimmer will be supporting Blu-Ray with the Stereoscopic Player but that is speculation at this point. Keep in mind there are no 3D BluRays available yet so no one really knows for sure.

For gaming, though, you can easily use the Nvidia driver and not encounter any problems. Also, if this projector does indeed support 3D-DLP than use of the iz3D or DDD drivers should be possible for gaming. Watching 3D video would also be possible using the Nvidia video player.

[VeJ]

Hello,

Thanks for the clear answers!

You cannot use existing 3D-DLP displays directly with 3D BluRay players (AFAIK) since that requires HDMI 1.4.

Yes, but the links I posted above made me confused... The Sony explanation is that the blu ray player supports 3D but not the other features added in hdmi 1.4, hence they could not label it hdmi 1.4. The Wikipedia link is of course just wikipedia but still... Is it me or is it maybe too early days to get a 3D-DLP projector at this time?
I'm on the fence between the Viewsonic pjd6531w (720p, 3D-dlp compliant) or the higher spec'd Epson EH-TW2900 (1080p, not 3D compliant).

You should, however, be able to use a PC with a Blu-Ray player to play the movie. However this is not confirmed and no software currently supports this. However several companies like Nvidia, ATI and Cyberlink have said they have plans to support this. In all likelyhood Peter Wimmer will be supporting Blu-Ray with the Stereoscopic Player but that is speculation at this point. Keep in mind there are no 3D BluRays available yet so no one really knows for sure.

So what source material can at present be played back on 3D-DLP displays? It seems quite limited to me: only from a computer and with specific drivers? I'm using a pc as main source for movies etc. though, so those limitations are not too big of a problem.

For gaming, though, you can easily use the Nvidia driver and not encounter any problems. Also, if this projector does indeed support 3D-DLP than use of the iz3D or DDD drivers should be possible for gaming. Watching 3D video would also be possible using the Nvidia video player.

I tried enabling the 3D in the nVidia driver, but cannot continue as it notices the 3D Vision dongle is not connected. How can I force the nVidia driver to send a 3D signal without this dongle?

Thanks!

Jörg

[cybereality]

The link you provided just confuses things. HDMI 1.4 is still the standard. I believe what they are talking about is transmitting an HDMI 1.4 compliant signal over HDMI 1.3 spec hardware. This is no different than Sony enabling HDMI 1.4 on the PS3 through a firmware update. The HDTV itself still has to be HDMI 1.4 compliant in order to decode the signal. This applies to a home theater setting, meaning a standalone Blu-Ray player and an HDTV. If you are using a PC then other options open up.

In terms of getting a 3D-DLP projector, I admit the waters are rocky, but that is not to say you shouldn't take the plunge. I myself am looking into getting one as well. Personally I am leaning toward the Acer H5360 as I have heard good reviews but that Viewsonic is probably a good model as well. The main thing holding me back is that it is still unknown whether 3D Blu-Ray will be 100% supported. It is likely it will be, but no one knows for sure at this point. If your only reason to get a 3D display is 3D BluRay, then I suggest you wait until there is confirmation (or get a display that is known to work, like the 50" Panasonic VT20 3D plasma). Otherwise there is a vast world of 3D PC gaming which can be very fun on a projector.

In terms of source material on 3D-DLP basically anything that can work on a PC can work on 3D-DLP. This includes games like Avatar (which support it natively) or any DirectX9 game using drivers such as Nvidia, IZ3D or TriDef. Using the Stereoscopic Player you can watch 3D videos in a variety of formats like the old field-sequential DVDs (aka HQFS 3D DVD), side-by-side or over-under video or even specially coded 3D WMV. There are mostly demo clips or cheesy B movies available, but they will work in 3D-DLP. However this all requires a decently powerful PC in order to work. If you don't have a PC then all you could use it for is maybe the Avatar or Invincible Tiger Xbox/PS3 games which support 3D-DLP natively. Otherwise you need a PC.

The Nvidia 3D driver will only enable if you have their glasses/dongle *AND* a compatible display. There is no known way to get it to work otherwise. You should, however, be able to use the driver in Nvidia Discover mode (red/cyan anaglyph) to at least confirm your computer is compatible.

I would certainly suggest you do get a 3D projector over a standard one. For one thing, it will likely be supported by 3D BluRay and, if not, you can still game in 3D. Even if 3D is not your main focus the projector will, of course, still work fine for 2D applications. If you are totally not interested in 3D, then surely the 1080P 2D projector is the better option. But if you weren't interested in 3D, then why would you find your way here? For me, personally, its 3D or the highway so take my advice with a grain of salt. But I think anyone would be happy to have a 3D theater in their living room.

[VeJ]

Thanks for your insights!
Well I came here because I wanted to make sure I'd be well informed about the whole thing prior to a purchase. I don't know enough about it to be able to decide without asking some questions. The things that prevent me from taking the plunge for a 3D-DLP projector are:

• lower resolution (there is vastly more 1080p material available at the moment than 3D, and on a big screen it matters)
• lack of lens shift and limited zoom making positioning tricky: shelfmounting would put the image would too high due to the fixed offset (I can either coffee-table position it at 1.7m, or shelf mount it at 3.5m; the posted viewsonic is about the only one that gives a nice size image from 1.7m away)
• rainbow effect (I haven't seen a DLP projector in action, so cannot say if I'm sensitive to it or not - projectors are not popular here so it is hard to find a place where you can see it - but I know friends of mine are)
• 60 Hz refresh rate in 3D (although I read it is not really comparable to watching a 60 Hz CRT).
• all the compatibility problems mentioned (e.g. nVidia driver not enabling, software to play back, ...).
• hidden costs (glasses, softwares, ...)

I'm not a true gamer but even for gaming there have been a number of attempts in the past (Elsa Revelator from 1999 springs to mind) and it failed to take off. The technique used back then is exactly similar to the techniques used now (shutter glasses, of course things will be refined now), so I'm not sure why now is so different (only difference I see is that Hollywood is pushing it now). I saw a Sony 3D TV with shutterglasses and was disappointed by it (there was depth, but the objects lacked thickness).
I admit that 3D is the future, but even still I'm leaning towards a full hd 2D projector for the time being... and for once not be one of the early adopters. If there would be an affordable full hd 3D-DLP projector with lens shift, I'd for sure go for it, but now I feel it is too much of a compromise. But I'm still doubting as being an early adopter can be fun...

Jörg

[DmitryKo]

The hdmi version of the projector is 1.3, but some sources say 3D over hdmi 1.3 is possible... Other sources claim you need hdmi 1.4 for 3D.

The answer is, HDMI 3D capabilities are not specifically tied to HDMI v1.4 as of now, and there can be HDMI device that were certified under HDMI 1.3 testing requirements but implement a full suite of HDMI 3D protocols first defined in HDMI 1.4 specification.

In fact, most HDMI capabilities are entirely optional, and HDMI Licensing defines separate logos for each of these optional capabilities, like "HDMI CEC", "Deep Color", "x.v.Color", "HDMI 3D", "HDMI Ethernet" etc. Some of these features were first defined in v1.2, some in v1.3, and some in v1.4, but since none of them are mandatory, there is really no connection between specified HDMI version number and expected feature set, excepot some very basic things such as underlying physical link protocol (which was last updated in v1.3 to support cable equalisation and up to 340 MHz clock over single link).

The version number the devices may display is just the version of the HDMI testing requirements that they have passed. The catch is, all existing HDMI devices can implement HDMI 3D protocols if they need to, and they won't have to receive HDMI 1.4 certification; this is a temporary excemption to licensing rules to allow easy upgrade to 3D capabilities for existing game consoles and set-top-boxes.


Existing 3D DLP TVs do not implement HDMI 3D features and use a special "checkerboard" compression scheme which transmits stereo signal in a standard 1080p60 signal. There will be a $100 converter box from Mitsubishi which will allow HDMI 3D playback devices to talk with those older 3D DLP sets which do not implement HDMI 3D formats.

[cybereality]

You bring up some good points and I see where you are coming from. On the 60Hz comment: these projector run at 120Hz in 3D mode. What I think you mean is 60Hz per eye, but its still 120Hz total. I have not seen these 3D-DLP projectors to compare, but I've seen other sources with shutter glasses on 120Hz and it looks fine. On the other points you are mostly right. These projector do have their cons. However that Viewsonic actually sounds pretty good. I was thinking about getting the Acer I mentioned but I think the Viewsonic would give a much larger image. I might have to get that one. To help you with your decision, I don't know what to say. Its really up to you, man. You could always get a 2D 1080P projector for now and by the time the bulb dies then get a 1080P 3D projector which will surely be commonplace in a few years. Or you could ride the latest 3D craze and be an early adopter. If you are not much of a gamer then you will probably be better off with the 2D projector as there isn't a whole lot of 3D video content just yet. Maybe a dozen or so 3D BluRays might available by years end. So I don't know, its your call.

EDIT: I just noticed that the Viewsonic PJD6531w is not listed on Nvidia's hardware compatibility list. I don't even know if that projector would work in 3D.

[VeJ]

Thank for your advice guys!

I've decided to sit this one out and opt for a full hd 2D projector (I saw a very good deal on the Epson EH-TW2900), especially considering my uses and interests. I actually feel now more at ease with this choice as I feel it is a well informed decision.

On the 60Hz:
Yes, I meant that each eye gets to see 60Hz signal.

Regarding the Viewsonic:
If you download the manual for the Viewsonic, it shows menu entries to choose the type of 3D (3D DLP or nVidia 3D Vision, on page 21). But the projector still seems impossible to find, so maybe it hasn't been tested nVidia yet?

Jörg