First Details of Sony PS3 Firmware Revealed at CES!

[Neil]

So it begins!

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLeOx2n1So4[/youtube-hd]

This is Steve Venuti, President of HDMI Licensing, LLC. For those unfamiliar, HDMI is the leading connector used in HDTVs. 2D and stereoscopic 3D HDTVs, to be exact!

Steve shares some information about the impending Sony PlayStation 3 firmware upgrade, the HDMI relationship with LCD shutter glasses, and some details on HDMI’s "golden rules" for its members. Very interesting!

Regards,
Neil

[yuriythebest]

awesome! 3d tv owners or future owners shalt be very optimistic

[winlonghorn]

So it begins!

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLeOx2n1So4[/youtube-hd]

This is Steve Venuti, President of HDMI Licensing, LLC. For those unfamiliar, HDMI is the leading connector used in HDTVs. 2D and stereoscopic 3D HDTVs, to be exact!

Steve shares some information about the impending Sony PlayStation 3 firmware upgrade, the HDMI relationship with LCD shutter glasses, and some details on HDMI’s "golden rules" for its members. Very interesting!

Regards,
Neil

Great news! Thank you Neil!

[zazoo]

Neil, with all the 3D announcements happening there, you must feel like a kid in a candy store
I hope you are wearing comfortable walking shoes with all the running around you are going to do Thanks for bringing us the inside scoop!

zazoo

[DmitryKo]

Where are those "details"? The fact that PS3 firmware could be updated to use "3D over HDMI" formats is hardly a revelation to me.

http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=116" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In order to meet the needs of the market, the HDMI Founders have decided to allow legacy set-top boxes (PS3! - DmitryKo) to use formats contained in Appendix H without having to implement the HDMI specification’s mandatory 3D formats, provided that they fully comply with the signaling protocol defined in Appendix H.

[Neil]

"Could" and "is" are two different things.

There is a greater significance to this story if you connect the dots and think through the ramifications. I'm curious to see how the announcements progress...

Regards,
Neil

[DmitryKo]

There is a greater significance to this story if you connect the dots and think through the ramifications

I did and I think the issue of PS3 stereo gaming has already been beaten to death. We need some hard facts at last!

PS3's new 3D mode coming in 2010 to all existing games
PS3 back catalogue unlikely to go 3D (Interview with MTBS)
Another reason to get a PS3 for 3D etc.

[Neil]

Patience!

Regards,
Neil

[winlonghorn]

Patience!

Regards,
Neil

Personally, I will try to be patient. However, that is not a strong trait of mine! lol.

[cybereality]

This is good news even if it isn't exactly news. Well all knew PS3 was getting a firmware update.

[Anthony1]

My biggest question with the PS3 and Stereo 3D, is what resolution are the 3D enabled games going to be in? I keep hearing Sony mention 1080p, yet the vast majority of their games are native 720p. Either way, I'm pretty much screwed with my 3D Samsung Plasma. My PN50A450 requires a resolution of 1360 x 768 or 1024 x 768 before it will allow the 3D mode to be activated. The PS3 (as far as I'm aware), is unable to output either resolution. I wonder if there is any possibility that Sony will release a new version of the PS3 that will feature a hardware based scaling chip like the Xbox 360 has?

I can play Stereo 3D games with the Xbox 360, because the 360 can output 1360 x 768. The thing is, Sony has many exclusive games, that if I wanted to play them in 3D, the only way it would happen is if I either buy a different 3D display, or in a future revision of the PS3, they actually include a hardware scaling capability.

Man, this really sucks, because I absolutely love Super Stardust HD, and the thought of playing that game in 3D makes me want to cry, lol.

[DmitryKo]

My biggest question with the PS3 and Stereo 3D, is what resolution are the 3D enabled games going to be in? I keep hearing Sony mention 1080p, yet the vast majority of their games are native 720p.

As usual, rendering to 720p with upscaling to 1080i/1080p.

My PN50A450 requires a resolution of 1360 x 768 or 1024 x 768 before it will allow the 3D mode to be activated. The PS3 (as far as I'm aware), is unable to output either resolution

Are you sure the PN50A450 would not accept a 720p underscan picture from HDMI input in stereo 3D mode? The modes listed on p.44 of the user manual are VESA modes for use with the PC - the set should also accept standard CEA-861 1080p/720p modes, and stereo 3D is activated manually anyway.

I wonder if there is any possibility that Sony will release a new version of the PS3 that will feature a hardware based scaling chip like the Xbox 360 has?

PS3 may not have a dedicated chip, but I'm sure it does feature an upscaler in some form - how would you think predominantly 720p games can work with 1080i displays?

[Anthony1]

My biggest question with the PS3 and Stereo 3D, is what resolution are the 3D enabled games going to be in? I keep hearing Sony mention 1080p, yet the vast majority of their games are native 720p.

As usual, rendering to 720p with upscaling to 1080i/1080p.

My PN50A450 requires a resolution of 1360 x 768 or 1024 x 768 before it will allow the 3D mode to be activated. The PS3 (as far as I'm aware), is unable to output either resolution

Are you sure the PN50A450 would not accept a 720p underscan picture from HDMI input in stereo 3D mode? The modes listed on p.44 of the user manual are VESA modes for use with the PC - the set should also accept standard CEA-861 1080p/720p modes, and stereo 3D is activated manually anyway.

I wonder if there is any possibility that Sony will release a new version of the PS3 that will feature a hardware based scaling chip like the Xbox 360 has?

PS3 may not have a dedicated chip, but I'm sure it does feature an upscaler in some form - how would you think predominantly 720p games can work with 1080i displays?

1. On page 32 of the instruction manual, it specifically states that the TV "must" receive either 1024x768@60Hz or 1360x768@60Hz via the HDMI 2 input for the 3D Mode to be turned on.

I've tried setting my Xbox 360 to 720p, and tried to see if I could somehow get it to work with the 360 set to 720p, but it doesn't work. What happens, is that when I use the Samsung remote, to go into the menu to turn on the 3D mode, the 3D mode isn't selectable. It's shaded dark, meaning I can't select it, or doing anything with it. In fact, it's always like that, unless the HDMI 2 slot is receiving either of those two resolutions. When I changed my 360 back to 1360x768, the 3D mode immediately becomes selectable, and I can turn it on.

It sucks.... Big Time.


My only real option that I can think of, is to sell this plasma and invest in another one that is more friendly to the various methods of 3D working, or to get some type of external scaler that will scale 720p to 1360x768. The big question with an external scaler though, is whether or not it will introduce some lag into the equation and mess up the left/right 3D streams, and it won't work properly. Also, an external scaler that can take 720p and scale it to 1360x768 isn't going to be cheap. I might just be better off buying a different display.



2. . There are a number of PS3 games that use a special software scaling mode, that allows them to work in 1080i. Uncharted 1, and Ratchet and Clank : Tools of Destruction are two of them that do it. The problem is, this special software scaling thing has a performance cost of about 15 to 20 percent, and there are a number of games that don't use because of this very reason. Killzone 2 is one of the games that doesn't use this because of performance issues.

I don't think it's 100 percent impossible that developers could write some type of algorithm that would change the 720p to 1360 x 768, but Samsung didn't sell enough of these plasmas for the developers to care. Most likely, 70 percent of the people that own this Samsung plasma probably aren't even aware of it's 3D capabilities. So basically, it's just a case of bad timing. On page 32 in the instruction manual for that Samsung, they specifically talk about setting the resolution of the "PC" to 1360x768. I don't think they even knew that PS3 and Xbox 360 would have Stereo 3D games.

I wonder if a firmware update for the plasma could allow it to work in 3D with a 720p resolution? Would Samsung even bother? They discontinued these 3D plasmas and are now focusing on 3D LCD displays. Also, I'm not sure a firmware update would even work. I think if there was some way for the 3D mode to work at another resolution, it already would, without a firmware update.

[ssiu]

PS3 may not have a dedicated chip, but I'm sure it does feature an upscaler in some form - how would you think predominantly 720p games can work with 1080i displays?

It doesn't ... one of the outcries from early PS3 days are from users who have old 1st-gen HDTVs (usually CRT-based) that accept 1080i signal but does not accept 720p signal. If the game itself supports only 720p and not 1080i, the PS3 will fallback to outputting 480p signal (which the TV then scales up).

We don't hear about the problem today because all current HDTVs can accept 720p input signal.

[ssiu]

I wonder if a firmware update for the plasma could allow it to work in 3D with a 720p resolution? Would Samsung even bother? They discontinued these 3D plasmas and are now focusing on 3D LCD displays. Also, I'm not sure a firmware update would even work. I think if there was some way for the 3D mode to work at another resolution, it already would, without a firmware update.

I think it will not be difficult for Samsung to update firmware to accept 720p (1280x720) checkerboard 3D input, and display in 3D mode in 1-to-1 pixel mapping (i.e. no stretching image to fill the screen, but leaving think black borders all around). But I doubt they would bother. UNLESS the upcoming Samsung 3D Blu-Ray players support 720p checkerboard 3D output (if it is part of the mandated 3D standard like Dmitry thinks, then it will), and enough owners complain to Samsung loudly like "I bought your HDTV that was advertised as 3D-Ready, and I bought your 3D Blu-Ray player, why can't I get 3D, that is not acceptable". They may just do it if enough owners complain, since it shouldn't be difficult to do.

[DmitryKo]

I've tried setting my Xbox 360 to 720p, and tried to see if I could somehow get it to work with the 360 set to 720p, but it doesn't work
My only real option that I can think of, is to sell this plasma and invest in another one that is more friendly to the various methods of 3D working, or to get some type of external scaler that will scale 720p to 1360x768.
I wonder if a firmware update for the plasma could allow it to work in 3D with a 720p resolution? Would Samsung even bother?

This is unfortunate. I don't think Samsung will bother with such a major firmware update, but they could probably make their own HDMI 1.4-compatible scaler/converter, like Mitsubishi did with their 3DC-1000 adapter for their older checkerboard-only DLP TVs.

I think it will not be difficult for Samsung to update firmware to accept 720p (1280x720) checkerboard 3D input

The problem is, they would probably have to make changes to the underlying software platform, and it would be a change that is clearly avoided for consumer devices, where firmware updates are restricted to bugfixes for the most critical issues and never extend beyond the typical 2-3 year warranty period.

It it were some specialized professional hardware, some vendors will be willing to let developers completey rewrite the firmware several times during the life cycle of the product, which can be 5 to 10 or even more years. I've seen examples in PBX telephony, digital musical instruments and audio mixing/recording/processing gear, where firmware updates and associated hardware options could radically alter both the functionality of the device and the user interface, and can be compared to installing a new version of the software product. Except for bugfix releases, such expansion options and firmware updates are never free though, and many of the them come with a substantial cost which can amount to 10-15% of the list price of the unit.

enough owners complain to Samsung loudly like "I bought your HDTV that was advertised as 3D-Ready, and I bought your 3D Blu-Ray player, why can't I get 3D, that is not acceptable"

Well, their 3D ready plasmas were never advertised as "Blu-ray 3D ready", "PS3 3D ready" or "HDMI 3D ready", since these specs were not finalized at the time of product release. These sets work with the PC just like they advertised, anything beyond that would be extending the advertised functionality of the product.

So I think Samsung would be better off with a scaling adapter box, if they care at all.

one of the outcries from early PS3 days are from users who have old 1st-gen HDTVs (usually CRT-based) that accept 1080i signal but does not accept 720p signal. If the game itself supports only 720p and not 1080i, the PS3 will fallback to outputting 480p signal (which the TV then scales up).

Khm, didn't know that. Sounds like a major design flaw to me.

[BlackShark]

Samsung doesn't give a f*ck about their old 3D plasmas.
They removed all stickers regarding the 3D capability, removed the features from their advertizing sheets, they even removed the displays from their official website on most localized translations. they do not inform the shops about the 3D feature, they even did not transmit the model numbers to nvidia or Ubisoft for their lists of compatible 3DTVs.

The PN42x450 and PN50x450 (A and B models) were just tech demos for the hardcore 3D enthusiasts and were never intended for mainstream use.
A French website had the opportunity to test these TVs when they first arrived in Europe (they were labelled PN42A476 at that time), The reviewers said clearly they were angry that it was extremely hard to find the TV since Samsung stopped advertizing the 3D feature before the TV was even released.

Once it abandonned the DLP market, Samsung changed it's strategy concerning 3D and took the exact same strategy as Sony. They do not want you to know there are already cheap 3DTVs on the market, they want you to buy their expansive 2DTVs and if you want some 3D, they want you to wait until they are ready with their next batch of new 3D ready models coming in 2010.

[Anthony1]

Sounds like a major design flaw to me.

Yeah, talk about a design flaw, it was a major disaster. How could the engineers at Sony drop the ball like that. I was actually one of the unfortunate people that was affected by this. I had a Sony 16:9 rear projection HDTV that could only do 1080i and 480p. If it received a 720p signal, it would downconvert to 480p. I bought a PS3 at launch in November 2006, and it was extremely dissapointing to play games like Resistance: Fall of Man, and Motorstorm in downscaled 480p. The games looked horrible. I basically had to hook my PS3 up to my bedroom HDTV instead of the living room. I had a bedroom HDTV that could do 720p, and even though it was a very small display, with a crappy sound system, I had to play my games in there, because they looked like garbage on the living room set.

I'm amazed to this day that Sony hasn't added some type of hardware based scaling to new revisions of the PS3. I don't see why they couldn't just add in a hardware scaling chip to new PS3's, and basically not announce anything at all about it. Eventually, people would discover that the newest PS3's can also scale to different resolutions, and for people that could use such a thing, at least they could have the option of selling their current PS3, and then buying a newer revision that contains the hardware scaling chip.

Such an upgrade is not unheard of in the console world. Sony added progressive scan dvd playback when they came out with the PS2 slim. Microsoft added HDMI video output to the 360 a year or so after the 360 originally launched.

It's pretty ironic that Sony has basically screwed me over twice with the lack of hardware based scaling. First, I got screwed because I had a 1080i/480p only HDTV. Then, when I finally upgraded that old set and got a plasma, little did I know I was getting screwed again by the lack of a scaler, because I would have problems with future 3D usage. Oh well... crap happens.

[DmitryKo]

Well, like I said, if Sony screws you, you screw Sony There is no better vote than voting with your money, and I heard the next Xbox will support stereo gaming right from the start (hint, hint).

[Anthony1]

Well, like I said, if Sony screws you, you screw Sony There is no better vote than voting with your money, and I heard the next Xbox will support stereo gaming right from the start (hint, hint).

I'm able to play Stereo games on the current Xbox right now. Because of the hardware scaling it has. I'm able to set my Xbox 360 to output the native resolution of the Samsung. So my 360 is set to 1360 x 768. This allows me to play Avatar and Invincible Tiger in stereo 3D.

The downside, is that I have no idea what the next Stereoscopic 3D game will be for the Xbox 360, while with Sony, they are making a big push into 3D gaming very, very soon. They showed off a bunch of stereo 3D games at CES, and have announced that they will have a firmware update allowing more Stereo 3D. Sony supposedly showed off Super Stardust HD in 3D, MLB 10: The Show in 3D, and a bunch of others. I haven't heard a single peep from the Xbox side of the coin about any Stereo 3D fare.

Wait a minute... You already know all of this, I forgot what thread I was posting in, lol....

[DmitryKo]

I'm able to play Stereo games on the current Xbox right now.
The downside, is that I have no idea what the next Stereoscopic 3D game will be for the Xbox 360

And the upside, you are able to play stereo games

Seriously, though, a new Xbox has been rumoured to appear in 2010 to 2012 timeframe (though Microsoft denies that a new version is in the works) with support for stereoscopic 3D gaming and both backward AND FORWARD (!!!) compatibility for Xbox 360 games - which means all games released for the newer console will be playable on the older Xbox 360 (!!!), in addition to being able to play older Xbox 360 games on the newer console. The new version should offer more performance and better visual quality for newer games which are aware of the additional features, however some reviews suggest that the performance gains on the new Xbox will be quite mild and the console will be basically a slightly updated Xbox 360 with the addition of built-in Natal technology.

(Funny how news outlets have been telling their usual nonsense of how older games will be able to auto-magically gain better visuals on the new console; actually, that is quite the reverse of the intended meaning of forward compatibility, which actually implies that older system can accept data intended for the later system but will gracefully ignore any new features).

If this scalable programming model holds true, it won't be too hard to implement 3D stereo support for all new games on the platform, provided the Xenos (R500) GPU is updated with higher clocks and/or more shader blocks to enable additional performance needed for stereo and HDR rendering (maybe even to be a closer match to current mid-end GPUs like HD46xx (RV730)). Oh, sweet dreams... they never come true.

[cybereality]

If that rumor is true about the new Xbox720 (or whatever) couldn't it be possible it uses that extra horsepower to make all existing Xbox360 games into stereoscopic 3D?

[rajkosto]

since all xbox360 games mostly use standard directx9-like API and vertex/pixel shaders written in HLSL, this is very possible
microsoft could make a 3d vision like solution below the directx9 layer of the new xbox.

[Anthony1]

According to comments made by Aaron Greenberg, it doesn't seem as though Microsoft is very interested at all in 3D.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/xbox-36 ... -microsoft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That article talks a little about it, but I read a different story in which he basically said that none of the Xbox gamers are really clamoring for 3D, and that they could provide 3D when the time comes, but that they don't really have any plans right now. Sony has tons of 3D stuff coming up, and it sounds like the Xbox 360 doesn't really have anything to look forward to. I heard about a 3D game called "Scrap Metal", but it turns out it's just an anaglyph game. Not what I'm looking for.

[cybereality]

Sony has tons of 3D stuff coming up, and it sounds like the Xbox 360 doesn't really have anything to look forward to.

Yeah and I bet Nvidia didn't have any plans for 3D Surround Vision until they saw ATI's Eyefinity.

[DmitryKo]

Many, many years from now when [stereo 3D] becomes a reality, [Microsoft] absolutely can support it, we do support it today. If developers want to make more 3D games, they can.

Sorry, I couldn't quite understand - do they support stereo 3D, or they do not?

If Microsoft doesn't want to bother with supporting stereo 3D at the API level, just provide the infrastructure - add HDMI 1.4 support and include a DisplayPort connector plug for those 120 Hz computer displays in a new revision of the hardware, and let consumers and developers decide.

If that rumor is true about the new Xbox720 (or whatever) couldn't it be possible it uses that extra horsepower to make all existing Xbox360 games into stereoscopic 3D?

since all xbox360 games mostly use standard directx9-like API and vertex/pixel shaders written in HLSL, this is very possible

I thought I specifically mentioned that forward compatibility implies older software can not take advantage of any new features it is unaware of, no? Oh, this deja-vu feeling... PS3's new 3D mode coming in 2010 to all existing games

No. Non. Nein. Na, ne, nee, nei, nie, nej, ei, не, ні, нет, жоқ, hayır, არ, ոչ, لا ,לא, 不, いいえ, 아니오. Absolutely negative, without any reservations.

Just like the PS3, Xbox 360 games are statically linked with the graphics libraries. There are are no user-updatable graphics componets or device drivers - the game executable contains all the necessary code which works with the fixed hardware. Providing a new functionality like stereo 3D support requires altering the game code and shipping a new game executable - which is a rare event reserved for fixing serious bugs. Etc.

[rajkosto]

actually, while the ps3 uses libgcm (with opengl es used rarely for non graphically intensive games), which is quite pedal to the metal and probably wont work with any graphics chip other than the RSX (modified 7800gtx from nvidia), xbox's libraries are pretty much dynamic and sort-of dx9 compatible. so if you do pop in a disc from a 360 into the 720, it could provide a wrapper translating the dx9 calls to dx10 (or whatever api they choose to support as native on the 720), while doing stereoscopy if required

[DmitryKo]

xbox's libraries are pretty much dynamic and sort-of dx9 compatible

Technically, it doesn't differ much from static code, since the libraries are shipped with the game executable; they are still technically middleware, not updatable OS components.

it could provide a wrapper translating the dx9 calls to dx10

That would require porting pretty major stuff from Windows NT architecture, things like Session Manager Application Compatibility Shims, and developing new stuff like Direct3D Stereo Compatibility profiles (which neither ATI nor Microsoft have any experience with). The OS kernel is said to only occupy 150 Kilobytes of memory on the Xbox, so I don't really see Microsoft expanding it to a dozen megabyte monster just for revitalizing some older games.

(Note that "Xbox emulation" on the Xbox 360 has nothing to do with technologies in the Application Compatibility Toolkit - the downloadable "emulation profiles" are just game executables re-compiled by hand to work on the PowerPC architecture of the new Xbox, no major features are added to the game.)

A compatibility mode in the GPU hardware that offers better resolution and image quality in an application transparent way is a possibility, but user interface and 2D graphics intended for 720p display wouldn't probably scale too well in a higher-resolution display. It's time to switch to resolution-independed, multi-language 2D interfaces like Direct2D/DirectWrite, and that's where I would put engineering resources. There's only so much you can do about auto-magically re-engineering older games on-the-fly.

[ssiu]

Samsung doesn't give a f*ck about their old 3D plasmas.
They removed all stickers regarding the 3D capability, removed the features from their advertizing sheets, they even removed the displays from their official website on most localized translations. they do not inform the shops about the 3D feature, they even did not transmit the model numbers to nvidia or Ubisoft for their lists of compatible 3DTVs.

The PN42x450 and PN50x450 (A and B models) were just tech demos for the hardcore 3D enthusiasts and were never intended for mainstream use.
A French website had the opportunity to test these TVs when they first arrived in Europe (they were labelled PN42A476 at that time), The reviewers said clearly they were angry that it was extremely hard to find the TV since Samsung stopped advertizing the 3D feature before the TV was even released.

Once it abandonned the DLP market, Samsung changed it's strategy concerning 3D and took the exact same strategy as Sony. They do not want you to know there are already cheap 3DTVs on the market, they want you to buy their expansive 2DTVs and if you want some 3D, they want you to wait until they are ready with their next batch of new 3D ready models coming in 2010.

Sounds like you are right (not that I doubt it before); quoting from this article "CNET's 3D TV FAQ" #8 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10434346-1.html

Samsung, which made 3D compatible DLP TVs through 2008, said it has no plans to release a similar adapter [to Mitsubishi's for their DLP TV] nor make its "3D-ready" plasma TVs, namely the PNB450 (2009) and the PNA450 (2008), compatible with new 3D formats, like 3D Blu-ray.

[taz291819]

Wow, I absolutely love my Samsung, but if this is the way they want to treat their customers, I won't purchase another one. Looks like I'm going back to the Mitsubishi camp my next go around.

My parents plan on buying a new 3D display this summer, and they current have a Mits HD CRT-RPTV. They like my Sammy DLP, but I'm going to tell them to stick to Mits. Hopefully Mits will offer more DLPs this year. A 240hz model would be nice.

[Silversurfer]

Surprisingly, it was the 3D rejiggering of a PlayStation Network game, not Gran Turismo 5, that made me think "Hey, this 3D display gimmick might not be so bad after all." That game was Housemarque's excellent Super Stardust HD.

Where Super Stardust HD in 3D succeeded was adding to the dazzling lightshow that a few minutes spent playing the twin stick shooter offers. Sparks seem to fly at the player when ships explode, the volume of space rocks and space ice that much more believable when seen spinning in simulated 3D.

While the particle effects impressed as 3D fireworks, the details on the planet and the volume of the force field that protects it showed what can make a 3D presentation improve upon the original 2D look. The details on the planet's surface really popped, as did the wireframe of the planetary force field.

There were a few instances where the 3D experience became distracting, particularly at the end of a round when the spaceship flies out of its orbit toward the camera. Otherwise, Super Stardust HD in 3D looks like one of the better options to take advantage of the technology.

http://kotaku.com/5444020/playing-super ... -ces-in-3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Send an email to Michael McWhertor, the author of this post, at mike@kotaku.com.