John Carmack confirms 2nd dev kit is in the works

[Marulu]

Yeah, you heard right, John Carmack just confirmed, a second dev kit is in the works, in an Engadget interview.
You can take a look at the interview here: http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/18/ocul ... interview/

[RikuDesu]

Just read it. I hope they limit the first batches to those who actually develop or at least own a rift though.

[Marulu]

Just read it. I hope they limit the first batches to those who actually develop or at least own a rift though.

Well, you never know who actually is a indie dev and who is not.
But if they make some system which allows you to verify yourself as a Dev, I would be all for the restriction.

Because if they don´t do that more consumers are only going to buy the devkit and not the finished product.
(In case there are not many differences between the two.)

If all of the normal consumers would order one, it also would make real devs that need it wait longer.

[blazespinnaker]

Interesting ... I wonder if they're going to come out with their own gaming console / smartphone.

That makes a lot of sense. Ambitious too. Carmack is the dude to do it. They're going to have to staff up a bit though, and not just for head tracking.

So... in a way, I'm right. Smartphones ARE going to compete with the Oculus Rift, so OR is going to get there first.

[RikuDesu]

As long as they keep nvidia sheild streaming or equivalent, I still want to be able to play games Ahaha. The problem with all the VA tech is the cost it takes. The computer is at least 1000,theres the rift, 300,the STEM 300,the Omni 350-500.
I'm hopping they can at least attempt to package some soultions together.

[blazespinnaker]

Mobile chips are evolving very rapidly, by the time they come out it, it'll be faster than the Shield

Sounds like a lot of their patents will be from their head tracking code.

[CylonSurfer]

Great news about the dev kit V2. The android stuff not so much. I can see myself self jumping ship pretty fast if the consumer rift isn't PC compatible, not the best news I've read tbh.

[xhonzi]

The android part doesn't necessarily mean it's not still a PC compatible device. Carmak himself says that though thunderbolt or something that it would still be capable of displaying content from your powerhouse PC.

Did anyone catch any specs on DK2? I'm guessing there will be "better" tracking and "higher" resolution, but I didn't hear any specifcs.

[blazespinnaker]

The final product will be standalone absolutely for sure, but I'm pretty sure it'll also be as PC compatible as possible. Why wouldn't it?

Basically, it'll be something similar to the Shield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Shield

It'll have a camera for sure (AR). Toss a cell chip in there and you have a bonafide smartphone.

As for the DK2, probably just a better screen / better tracking.

[cegli]

If you actually listen to the interview you can understand what he means by Android support:

"Eventually in the future, best of both worlds is to be able to run something like Quake 3 on the headset, no wires, etc. Then if you want to play Battlefield 5 at 120hz, you use your PC."

He's envisioning a world in the future (maybe Rift v2 or Rift v3), where a cheap Android SoC can be embedded into the rift, so it's its own Ouya style device. It can run games "wirelessly" this way, straight from a SoC on the Rift. It would still maintain an HDMI port for standard PC connected experiences.

Every comment I see about them considering mobile is acts like it would only hook into phones for some reason.

[Attreyu]

The final product will be standalone absolutely for sure, but I'm pretty sure it'll also be as PC compatible as possible. Why wouldn't it?

Basically, it'll be something similar to the Shield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Shield

It'll have a camera for sure (AR). Toss a cell chip in there and you have a bonafide smartphone.

As for the DK2, probably just a better screen / better tracking.

Lol, they wiped the floor with me in my Viiwok thread talking about wifi streaming to a tablet. Granted, I said that the latency was between 0 and 5ms when in fact it was close to 80-100 but for me it was absolutely playable.

Still, everybody seems to yell "blasphemy" each time someone mentions smartphones or tablets as VR devices, and now Carmack himself begins talk about Android and "stand alone devices". The irony.

[zalo]

Pretty sure our main issue with your setup is wireless streaming of PC video using a tablet, not actually running the game on a tablet.

[DarkAkuma]

I haven't been a fan of the DK2 idea. But really after watching the vid on that post, I just don't have enough info to have a firm opinions on it. At best I can just say "As long as developing a DK2 doesn't effect the release date or the consumer version, it's probably fine.".

After watching that vid, my minds more eager to know about what Carmack's secret project is about. I want to start theorizing! Realistic theories and absurd! lol

Also it's nice to take away a certain bit from that vid. It's the first time I've heard anything new about design choices for the next model (DK2 or consumer) in a long time. I personally won't hold Oculus to it, but it sounded like Carmack basically said they're leaning towards using an optical tracker for the much needed position tracking! I don't think I have feelings either way regarding their choices, but after the lackluster amount of news these past months, I'm just happy to hear even so much as them leaning towards something! It's just nice knowing they're making progress of some sort. You would figure they would be, but we just don't really know when were in the dark this long.

So, I wonder... is the DK2 going to look like a 1980's Walkman strapped to your face after all? =)

[Marulu]

Palmer just confirmed on the Oculus Rift sub-Reddit, the second dev kit is going to be available to everyone, just like the current one.
He also said that the pre-Kickstarter customers are going to get it earlier than all the other people.

[MSat]

In a way, I hope any mobile components they develop will be in the form of add-on modules rather than something integrated in the HMD. It keeps the price down for those people who don't care for such functionality, and for those that do, the HMD or mobile computer can be upgraded independently.

[PalmerTech]

Still, everybody seems to yell "blasphemy" each time someone mentions smartphones or tablets as VR devices, and now Carmack himself begins talk about Android and "stand alone devices". The irony.

We are talking about building mobile chipsets into hardware that is specifically built and optimized for VR, with the ability to connect it to a PC over a cable. You were talking about general purpose phones and tablets entirely replacing dedicated VR devices and wirelessly streaming games. There is no irony, the two concepts are almost completely different.

[Dilip]

We are talking about building mobile chip sets into hardware that is specifically built and optimized for VR, with the ability to connect it to a PC over a cable.

This is what i am requesting from jUly 13. i see it as a huge potential, reason very obvious it can have many many utilities

A powerful SoC studded rift can

1) Work as stand alone console, can solve many algorithms on its own processing power sparing power of your pc for gaming or enhancing overall experience, can house its own utility suit, can be used with Bluetooth joypad, doesn't require PC for casual VR games creating casual vr gamer community.

2) Can be used as PC VR peripheral or MObile/Tab VR Assesarry

3) Can be used to read e books, surf net and why not second/third/fourth
reserve phone to be used in emergency. can have 4G net via phone SIM
CARD

4) Will create its own class adding uniqueness to it.

Provided that you guys can keep it clutter free and SLIM & SLEEK DEVICE don't repeat mistake of SHIELD (its good but you can't pocket it!) & Epson Moverio (Closed Ecosystem)

[Dilip]

In a way, I hope any mobile components they develop will be in the form of add-on modules rather than something integrated in the HMD. It keeps the price down for those people who don't care for such functionality, and for those that do, the HMD or mobile computer can be upgraded independently.

How about building one Rift HMD and giving option of Diffrenet Base Stations?

One that with SoC,so it can house its own Android OS,that can multy
task.

Second type of base just vanilla supporting only PC for those who don't have fetish for mobility.(This option is not possible if oculus going to put rift experince helping processing in studed SoC as it will kill basic purpose)

when some one wish to upgarde for mobilty will need to buy that SOC base only and not the whole package

thus boosting all kind of business,still keep fans happy.

[Dilip]

I haven't been a fan of the DK2 idea. But really after watching the vid on that post, I just don't have enough info to have a firm opinions on it. At best I can just say "As long as developing a DK2 doesn't effect the release date or the consumer version, it's probably fine.".

My Concerns are even greater

1) i think DK2 must be same or 90% same as consumer version or else it will really loose its purpose. what i think as DK2s prime goal should be

Giving developers chance to play their product and check how it will look on final version from start to finish and tress out any missed bugs which appear on final version only like those related to interface and resolution..

So if it going to be much change when final version will out then its really point less to investing in DK then DK2 then DK3 so on.....

2) DK2 must be modular and upgradable enough so that those who buy DK2 can match Final version at minor price difference paying, when final version is out.

3) Rift has to be future proof at least for 1/2 years so that any one can be tempted to invest else every one think let's wait for a year to get a better version..

[D3n]

I'm excited for this.

As i understand, i imagine the Rift will be like this: the head piece that's being cable connected to a portable base, that you can clip to your pants or shirt*. The portable base will have battery and a SOC running Android (ideally, the portable base would be replaceable, in case you want a more powerful soc in the future, and want to keep the current head piece). My suggestion is to have the connection cable replaceable too, in case of damage or wanting a different length (eg, you could mount the base, if it's not too big, at the back of your head, velcroed to the HMD's straps -> or even better, at the lower back of your neck). The battery should also be easily removable.

This setup would be very cool for watching movies, especially with an app like VRCinema. Combine it with some portable full body (or only for the upper body) motion capturing and wireless internet, you could have all kinds of crazy stuff, like Second Life kind of MMOs. Or other kinds of VR games, that don't strive for real life illusion, so they shouldn't be too GPU intensive. Not to mention retro emulation that you can play on a virtual big screen (2D and and no VR, but still...if you want to play mario on an imax sized cinema screen, you could do that). And i'm sure others would have other ideas that can benefit from this portable android powered setup.

And when you need to play something very graphic intensive, you just connect it to the PC with one cable, like Carmack said in the interview. Now, i'm not sure if the battery and the base would still be needed in this case. Ideally you would want only one cable from the PC to the RIFT, with no box in between. Of course, wireless video streaming would be best, but i guess the tech needed for low latency doesn't exists, atm.

But, what i would really, really want is for a way to play any video source (and i'm thinking of consoles, past and future) on the RIFT. No VR, just giant screen on your face, basically a HMD like Sony's HMZ line. Plug the HDMI into the rift's box and you're done. This would be a killer feature, along with the Virtual Cinema one, imo. This way you will have a device that's good for everything, not just VR. And i think this could be possible, with the added SOC, that could do all the video processing needed.

*since the portable base sits on your body, why not making it act as an additional positional tracking sensor as well? And if you want more sensors, make it like a hub for them.

[Dilip]

I'm excited for this.
As i understand, i imagine the Rift will be like this: the head piece that's being cable connected to a portable base, that you can clip to your pants or shirt*. The portable base will have battery and a SOC running Android (ideally, the portable base would be replaceable,

You are correct here but sadly oculus is not convinced enough in keeping battery atm. they see as non productive investment that many people wan't want and it may interrupt air shipping too.

Now, i'm not sure if the battery and the base would still be needed in this case.

Current DK has base and its needed to make hmd light on your face and surely it will be there in DK2 and most probably consumer rift too.

Ideally you would want only one cable from the PC to the RIFT, with no box in between.

its not possible atm because of above sited reason.


Surely adding powerful SoC to base would be great add on even if you offer this base as optional but battery is must to make it fruitful.

[D3n]

You are correct here but sadly oculus is not convinced enough in keeping battery atm. they see as non productive investment that many people wan't want and it may interrupt air shipping too.

Maybe i'm mistaken, but Carmack himself said in that interview that the consumer android version will be standalone, so i presume he meant no cables attached to you (PC and power). Therefore it must have some battery, like all phones have. If not, than at least i hope the power input will be a USB port, so users like me could use a portable battery.

later edit: can you give me a link to the discussion where the oculus team said they don't plan to include battery for the retail version, please?

[bboyza]

Probably find the biggest difference between the DK2 and a final OR is going to be more to do with cosmetics, the box it comes in, printed manuals, branding, warranties, and maybe more things that you can adjust on the Rift itself, like lens separation and lens focus, straps, etc.

For it to make sense the technical capabilities of the unit should be the same. I hope we get some time-frames at that point. What is going to be interesting is the transition from DK1 and DK2 and how they are going to handle the last 1000 people or more who bought a DK1 just before they announce the DK2's availability.

[rowanunderwood]

I haven't been a fan of the DK2 idea. But really after watching the vid on that post, I just don't have enough info to have a firm opinions on it. At best I can just say "As long as developing a DK2 doesn't effect the release date or the consumer version, it's probably fine.".

My Concerns are even greater

1) i think DK2 must be same or 90% same as consumer version or else it will really loose its purpose. what i think as DK2s prime goal should be

Giving developers chance to play their product and check how it will look on final version from start to finish and tress out any missed bugs which appear on final version only like those related to interface and resolution..

So if it going to be much change when final version will out then its really point less to investing in DK then DK2 then DK3 so on.....

2) DK2 must be modular and upgradable enough so that those who buy DK2 can match Final version at minor price difference paying, when final version is out.

3) Rift has to be future proof at least for 1/2 years so that any one can be tempted to invest else every one think let's wait for a year to get a better version..

The #1 reason for a DK2 is the lack of positional tracking in DK1. You simply can't dump something that huge into devs laps without some initial testing. Resolution, cases and whatnot are basically swap-in-able for the final version. In fact I'll bet the possible inclusion of Full Android in DK2 has to do with positional tracking also. They don't have the engineers to create solid state firmware controllers from scratch to make all the trackers play nice with each other, but they do have Carmack to whip something up in software

[Dilip]

In fact I'll bet the possible inclusion of Full Android in DK2 has to do with positional tracking also.

If thats true then there won't be androidless release, then there will be purist who don't want additonal cost of including android, then there will be problems arising from air shipping of product with battery and what not

They don't have the engineers to create solid state firmware controllers from scratch to make all the trackers play nice with each other.

Don't you think its too innocent to think this way,when some one have 16m$ funding to hire coders having such skills.They are running a company and its far more then a hobby project now.

but they do have Carmack to whip something up in software .

Thats a last resort found by we the Carmack fans, he too might have more pressing things to handle then whip up something in software while being CTO at oculus.

Ofcourse i didn't said why there is DK2? My post was about DK2 should be either 'Same as consumer' or 'Very Moduler' in nature,thus can be upgradable. here i was taking in account buyers who are not developers as it is going to be open to purchase for all. But in a way one should not worry for dev kit buyer consumers as Oculus already saying consumers, 'Please dont buy DK if you are not developer' what more then that they can do. but yes if its going to be followed by consumer version in next few months then it ideally got to be same as consumer version becouse of already mentioned reasons.

[Dilip]

later edit: can you give me a link to the discussion where the oculus team said they don't plan to include battery for the retail version, please?

Sorry its not in discussion and becouse of moral ethics i cant put here anything more then that.

I too would love to buy if any day there will be rift with battery and Android Os a Meaty SoC yet Enticing Price Tag (did you hear affordable.. )...thats for sure.

[colocolo]

WHen?

[Okta]

Good to have some news.
I like the idea of android but hope it is a separate unit, belt clip. Mobile hardware is leaping and bounding and we wouldn't like to get stuck with a vic20 glued to our HMD . This might give a simpler platform for the Oasis/Metaverse OR are working on .

As for DK2 released before the consumer release next year? We believe it when we see it lol.

[Kazioo]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/ ... it/ccv0vr5

Building a mobile processor into the Rift is a long term project, we don't have any plans to do it for the first consumer product.

[OzOnE2k10]

OK, that puts pay to the 1080p upgrades then (for me at least).

It's been a hassle trying to get hold of MIPI adapters and panels, so this is kind of a relief for me.
(that's not to say I won't be grabbing a new panel if a solution becomes available. )

I haven't read this thread yet, but I second the idea of letting people who already have / ordered a DK1 to have first pickings of the DK2.
I can't say that I'm a developer as such by any means, so maybe that's a bit unfair?

If true devs want a DK2, I guess they should get priority?

This is good news though. The fabled DK2 might be just around the corner, and I'm sure it will be amazing.

OzOnE.

[Dilip]

Palmer Luckey wrote:
Building a mobile processor into the Rift is a long term project, we don't have any plans to do it for the first consumer product.

Exactly, thats what i too sensed. regardless, if they are building that android one for future, whats bad to add just battery in consumer version. so that still it could be used as mobile unit with supported TABs/Phones wid HDMI+USb.

Though i could not find many great tabs with Full HOST USB most of them are with OTG, which sadly useless for Head Tracker.

In this scenario i expect consumer version to be Vanilla only, may be hot chocolate (Andro 'KITKAT' ) follow in RiFt 2.0 or 3.0

[MSat]

OK, that puts pay to the 1080p upgrades then (for me at least).

It's been a hassle trying to get hold of MIPI adapters and panels, so this is kind of a relief for me.
(that's not to say I won't be grabbing a new panel if a solution becomes available. )

I haven't read this thread yet, but I second the idea of letting people who already have / ordered a DK1 to have first pickings of the DK2.
I can't say that I'm a developer as such by any means, so maybe that's a bit unfair?

If true devs want a DK2, I guess they should get priority?

This is good news though. The fabled DK2 might be just around the corner, and I'm sure it will be amazing.

OzOnE.

They should be able to pump out the V2 dev kits a lot easier than they were able to do with the first one as they already have manufacturing and distribution capabilities in place. Also, my understanding was that the people who ordered their DK in the pre-kickstarter phase would be the ones to have first dibs, not the kickstarter backers.

With higher-res panels in various sizes available now, I don't see a good reason why they should continue building the old version, even if the only change to the new one is resolution. After all, "Full HD" would be a major improvement.

[blazespinnaker]

It's not "Full" HD, it's just better resolution. Hardly something anyone needs to buy for development.

The DK2 must at least have positional tracking to be a rational upgrade before the consumer version comes out.

From the update:

"A standalone VR headset is the future of VR, especially as mobile computing continues to rapidly advance. Bringing VR to an open platform like Android will pave the way for completely new experiences. The Oculus Android SDK is up and running internally, and we’re working on core optimizations for mobile chipsets now. Stay tuned for more news on this front!"

So, they already have an SDK and they're working on optimizations. That hardly sounds long term given that they're thinking of doing DK2.. I wonder if Palmer is expressing more opinion than fact.

[OzOnE2k10]

OK, that puts pay to the 1080p upgrades then (for me at least).

It's been a hassle trying to get hold of MIPI adapters and panels, so this is kind of a relief for me.
(that's not to say I won't be grabbing a new panel if a solution becomes available. )

I haven't read this thread yet, but I second the idea of letting people who already have / ordered a DK1 to have first pickings of the DK2.
I can't say that I'm a developer as such by any means, so maybe that's a bit unfair?

If true devs want a DK2, I guess they should get priority?

This is good news though. The fabled DK2 might be just around the corner, and I'm sure it will be amazing.

OzOnE.

They should be able to pump out the V2 dev kits a lot easier than they were able to do with the first one as they already have manufacturing and distribution capabilities in place. Also, my understanding was that the people who ordered their DK in the pre-kickstarter phase would be the ones to have first dibs, not the kickstarter backers.

With higher-res panels in various sizes available now, I don't see a good reason why they should continue building the old version, even if the only change to the new one is resolution. After all, "Full HD" would be a major improvement.

Yep, it's fair enough to let the pre-KS peeps get the first batches.
I agree too - no point using 720p / 800p panels any more.

Don't get me wrong, the DK1 is still great as a Dev kit, and those were the best panels for the price at the time,
but the resolution is one of the main areas for improvement.

Oh, is the DK2 not going to be at least 1080p? What would be in-between the two?
I thought 1080p / 1200p was always considered "Full HD"?

[colocolo]

It's not "Full" HD, it's just better resolution. Hardly something anyone needs to buy for development.

The DK2 must at least have positional tracking to be a rational upgrade before the consumer version comes out.

From the update:

"A standalone VR headset is the future of VR, especially as mobile computing continues to rapidly advance. Bringing VR to an open platform like Android will pave the way for completely new experiences. The Oculus Android SDK is up and running internally, and we’re working on core optimizations for mobile chipsets now. Stay tuned for more news on this front!"

So, they already have an SDK and they're working on optimizations. That hardly sounds long term given that they're thinking of doing DK2.. I wonder if Palmer is expressing more opinion than fact.

that are exciting news.
That would sound like a very fantastic opinion.

[TheHolyChicken]

So, they already have an SDK and they're working on optimizations. **That hardly sounds long term given that they're thinking of doing DK2.. I wonder if Palmer is expressing more opinion than fact.**

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Their "long term" with Android is to have an android-powered little computer as part of the HMD itself, so that you can either plug the Rift into a PC/console for the "premiere" experience, but also use it completely standalone for things like cinema apps. From what I've heard that's not going to be in consumer V1, though, hence "long term plans".

[TheHolyChicken]

Oh, is the DK2 not going to be at least 1080p? What would be in-between the two?
I thought 1080p / 1200p was always considered "Full HD"?

1080p is indeed what's known as "Full HD", though people may be disappointed with the clarity when those pixels are spread across a huge FOV. DK2 is going to be extremely closely matched with the consumer V1's features, and I would be extremely surprised if it used a different panel, so you can safely assume a 1080p panel in the DK2 at minimum.

I don't know why there's so much hype around this, though; a date for DK2 won't even be ANNOUNCED this year, nevermind released and into anybody's hands. It's only going to appear once the consumer version's features have really been nailed down. It's almost as far away as the consumer kit itself, yet people are reacting like they'll be able to order one tomorrow.

[blazespinnaker]

If it's not going to be in the consumer, why talk about it now? Before DK2 has even come out?

All resources and focus should be on DK2/Consumer at this point. By talking up Android all they are doing is discouraging developers from building for this version if something different is coming down the pipe. Sure, some may dev for this this, but a lot of developers are going to go into a wait and see mode - especially since hardly millions of people have a Rift. And if they think they're stopping people from developing for VRASE or whatever, they're crazy. People will prototype for VRASE to get ready or the Rift. Or whatever.

Palmer is either very wrong about the consumer not being standalone/mobile and needlessly confusing their customers, or Oculus VR has very terrible management.

Either way, I was doing a lot of traveling this past week and was sad that my OVR is such a cable nightmare. Would have loved to take it on my trip with me and use it on trains/planes/buses.

[Kazioo]

Oh, is the DK2 not going to be at least 1080p?

Yes. DK2 is supposed to have exactly the same display that will be in the consumer model.

If it's not going to be in the consumer, why talk about it now? Before DK2 has even come out?

I think you confuse two different things:
1. Android support, SDK.
2. Android SoC integrated into the Rift / Rift as a standalone device.

They talk a lot about the first one. The second one was only mentioned by Carmack in Engadget's interview (as a vision of the future: "The way I believe it's going to play out is you will eventually have... ") and even Engadget interpreted it correctly: "Carmack also spelled out what he sees as the FUTURE of...".

And if they think they're stopping people from developing for VRASE or whatever, they're crazy. People will prototype for VRASE to get ready or the Rift. Or whatever.

You can't be serious when you talk about vrase as a competing device. The only reasonable competition is CastAR with VR clip-on - current prototype has 80-90 degrees FOV, doesn't waste pixels and is 120 Hz, but they are still underfunded and there are other issues (like the tracking designed for different purpose), so it's fate as a VR hmd is still uncertain.

[colocolo]

Right now it seems like Oculus VR is the only big player for VR.
Support from the entire game industry with many industry veterans arriving. Looks much like they are evolving to an indispensible important figure.
The only company that could compete would probably be Valve but since they already gave their support to Oculus its not that imaginable.
We have to face the truth: Oculus is quiet important already although they dont get every display they want.