Vadim Asadov Volume 3

[yuriythebest]

"only for 3D enthusiasts, not for normal people, try again next time".
At least Franch 3d enthusiasts will know about your monitor but non-3d-enthusiasts won't even try it.

I find that classifying monitors this way based upon some obscure set of tests is very weird. Of course they haven't reviewed it yet but I find that this monitor is quite suitable for all non-3d activities like text and watching movies, especially HD widescreen and doing computer graphics and stuff. The only downside for me is that since I only have one video card I can't attach any more of my 2d screens, however that's a problem of my rig, not of the iz3d. Hope they take time to "get to know it", and write a decent review.

They didn't really said that, but that's what i understand whe i read their review and see the results of their tests.
The tests they perform are the harshests i've seen on the internet and the Zalman screen got a good overall review but that's just because it's the 1st 3D screen they know about and have tested. They say they have big hopes for better 3D monitors and would love to see more but at the same time thay have to be fair and loyal to their principles, and their readers.

3D monitors are worth twice as much as regular monitors, and i'm expecting the same for IZ3D's 26". Vadim hasn't announced any price but i'm expecting it to be in the 1000~1200€ range. But that won't be really known until the final specs for the screen are finalized.
Anyway, for us, 3D is invaluable, but normal people can't justify spending twice the price of a screen if they don't use the 3D feature.
Especially with the current IZ3D 22". In fact, i believe that if they had reviewed the 22" model it would have had a less good review than Zalmann's.
Not having a 2ms response time isn't good for hardcore gamers : both screen suffer from this.
But having to use both outputs is a big disadvantage for IZ3D.

I also believe that they could have tested the IZ3D monitor if they really wanted to, but the IZ3D monitor is so 3D-oriented that it's not ready to fight against regular monitors.

What i mean is that 3D monitors is a niche market. Fighting against other 3D monitors and bringing better 3D solution would probably increase the market a little but it would still be niche.
If you want to conquer the main consumer market, you should fight 2D monitors on their own ground, and for gamers, it's :
-#1 reactivity : anything announcing something above 2ms doesn't even exist
-#2 price
-#3 colour stuff (contrast, colour fidelity, etc...)
-#4 the rest

And, no 3D monitor can even pretend to enter this category yet, except the viewsonic 120Hz prototype.
If you want to reach non-3D users, you have to have the best 2D monitor and at the same time have the best 3D experience. Otherwise you'll only target a niche market.

yup I'm not saying they did so yet, and I agree with you completly. In any case I think it's overall unfair to compare the tech specs on 3d and 2d monitors- at least for now.

[Likay]

BlackQ: Thanks for taking your time. Looking forward to the 1.09, new glasses and what you'll bring in the future.

cheers

[BlackQ]

Hi, chrisjarram!

nVidia can interrupt rendering process - we can not. We can try to create additional pair of buffers, but it will be fps problem then

we tested nV GTX280 and ATI 4870

[BlackQ]

Hi, BlackShark!

"Does this mean that the screen will also feature interlaced input ? (for games and future S-3D tv broadcasts, which will very probably be interlaced)"

Yes, you are right

"How do you connect a console to the screen, will the screen handle single HDMI or DVI (through adapter) or YUV input for interlaced 3D (or simply 2D : no need anymore for 2 DVI inputs for displaying a 2D image)."

I don't remember the whole list of inputs, but it would be all for XBox 360, PS3 and Wii

"Does the screen has good quality upscaling features (i mean do i have to connect a PS3 or X360 or can i also get a good image with a Wii ? in 2D)"

with initial prototype Wii quality was good - everybody liked it

"When will you make your own TV ? (ok that's maybe for much much later)"

in our road map we are thinking about 2010, but we may try speed up in case of good funding

[BlackQ]

Hi, Killigath!

Yes, monitor will make left / right to back / front conversion inside. But console will generate left and right - I can not disclose final format yet, but we hope to make it through SDK release.

For old game re-compilation I assume would be necessary.

[BlackQ]

Hi, yuriythebest1!

Yes, it is exactly clipping we are talking about - it is corrected now


guys, I'll continue later - running between meetings...

[BlackShark]

Damn you BlackQ !!!
The more you talk the less i can stand waiting for that magic monitor to come out !

I wish we were spring-09 already...

[chrisjarram]

Hi, chrisjarram!

nVidia can interrupt rendering process - we can not. We can try to create additional pair of buffers, but it will be fps problem then

we tested nV GTX280 and ATI 4870

Hmm.. ok. I'm hoping maybe ED-Activator will be enough - as I understand it the ED glasses work simply on the vertical sync signal, also the ED-Activator provides the option to switch L-R and I have a hardware dongle which does it too.

Any perticluar reason you can't inerrupt the rendering process? Sounds like a pretty critical issue to me

Thanks BlackQ

[yuriythebest]

Hi, chrisjarram!

nVidia can interrupt rendering process - we can not. We can try to create additional pair of buffers, but it will be fps problem then

we tested nV GTX280 and ATI 4870

Hmm.. ok. I'm hoping maybe ED-Activator will be enough - as I understand it the ED glasses work simply on the vertical sync signal, also the ED-Activator provides the option to switch L-R and I have a hardware dongle which does it too.

Any perticluar reason you can't inerrupt the rendering process? Sounds like a pretty critical issue to me

Thanks BlackQ

the ED activator just makes the screen go into interlace mode- it doesn't actually have anything to do with directx/opengl - it just makes interlaced pics visible

Nvidia obviously has more control since it's their video cards and they have all the code for the nvidia forceware which is of course close source.

[yomer]

Hi, BlackShark!

"Does this mean that the screen will also feature interlaced input ? (for games and future S-3D tv broadcasts, which will very probably be interlaced)"

Yes, you are right

"How do you connect a console to the screen, will the screen handle single HDMI or DVI (through adapter) or YUV input for interlaced 3D (or simply 2D : no need anymore for 2 DVI inputs for displaying a 2D image)."

I don't remember the whole list of inputs, but it would be all for XBox 360, PS3 and Wii

"Does the screen has good quality upscaling features (i mean do i have to connect a PS3 or X360 or can i also get a good image with a Wii ? in 2D)"

with initial prototype Wii quality was good - everybody liked it

"When will you make your own TV ? (ok that's maybe for much much later)"

in our road map we are thinking about 2010, but we may try speed up in case of good funding

Are you saying that you have tested Wii in S3D? Or just connected the Wii to test the upscaling?

Can you give us all the details possible on how do you plan to get 3D out of consoles, or more importantly if you have already gotten some 3D from any... what do you know that we don't?

[yuriythebest]

Hi, yuriythebest1!

Yes, it is exactly clipping we are talking about - it is corrected now


guys, I'll continue later - running between meetings...

wow this is an amazing breakthrough. As far as I know even nvidia hasn't fixed this yet (at least in the old driver). Kudos on the spore fix and also on this

[chrisdfw]

Hi, chrisjarram!

nVidia can interrupt rendering process - we can not. We can try to create additional pair of buffers, but it will be fps problem then

we tested nV GTX280 and ATI 4870

BlackQ, could you perhaps provide examples of what video cards and 3d displays will and won't work with shutter glasses or any workarounds that could be used? I am having trouble figuring out what hardware I will need and what games I can play using shutter glasses on your new drivers.

For example, I have E-dimensional shutter glasses and a DLP projector. I have a computer with an Nvidia 7900GT and another with an 8800GT. Using old Nvidia 3d drivers on my 7900GT I had to reverse the left/right images but it synched with shutter glasses fine other than that. What will I be able to do with your drivers and which of my equipment will work? Does your driver synch problem have to do with the old 15 pin VGA connector having a synch but newer DVI don't even with a DVI to VGA adapter? I believe my 7900GT card has DVI outputs and I am using a DVI/VGA adapter to hook my projector's 15pin old style vga cable to it.

Thank you for all your help!

[BlackShark]

Are you saying that you have tested Wii in S3D? Or just connected the Wii to test the upscaling?

He was just talking about upscaling.

Can you give us all the details possible on how do you plan to get 3D out of consoles, or more importantly if you have already gotten some 3D from any... what do you know that we don't?

There are no console games with 3D output at the moment and consoles aren't designed for S-3D so game developpers have to make a native S-3D game. I think Ubisoft announced that the game based on James Cameron's AVATAR will have a S-3D feature.
The iZ3D team probably phoned them to ask how they were going to have S-3D output so that they can support it. And there is already a 99% chance it's interlaced S-3D for obvious technical reasons :
consoles have only 1 video output, and have limited power which developper already need to make the game look good in 2D so, since interlacing reduces resolution (saves a little power) it's the most obvious way to go.

---> New question to BlackQ :

I prefer non-glossy screen surfaces to glossy ones.
Have you decided if you will be implementing a glossy filter on the monitor yet ? Or is it too early and you haven't decided yet ?

[ssiu]

Question to BlackQ -- it seems to me that IZ3D monitors have an inherent cost disadvantage due to the technology, i.e. needing 2 LCD panels. All other competitior monitor solutions seem less costly (e.g. Zalman -- embedding thin film at front of panel, Viewsonic/DLP HDTV/Plasma HDTV -- just taking advantage of a faster panel). Would you agree? And if true, how does IZ3D plan to stay competitive?

[BlackQ]

Hi, BlackShark!

I understand your point about 2d and 3d monitor, but let me give you two sample I'm trying to use in our marketing strategy:

1. Cars: Folkswagen and Volvo - both are mass, but Volvo is more expensive, but people are ready to pay, because it is about "safety" even both are safe enough....

2. LCD versus CRT - LCD was bad long period of time, even it because mass market (in term of response time, colors, white temperature), where is CRT....

I'm not competitive gamer and I can not separate all 16 mln colors - why do I need 2ms not 5ms and ideal color gamut losing nice 3d effect?

just ideas ...

BTW, any new model is 8-9 months... it is reality of display industry - nothing can speed up this process...

Anti-reflection (AR) coating can be added for some cost (and brightness), but this is not common now in industry - many monitors have not AR - we'll make customer research about this issue I think

[BlackQ]

Hi, chrisjarram!

I assume that vsync will not help - it is about sending out image from the buffer, but not about putting image to the display buffer

We can not interrupt because we have no access atm to the main driver - may be we can do it when change architecture to command buffer in 2.00

[BlackQ]

Hi, yomer!

We made special board and small demo game like freebie for Wii - game generated left and right and board converted it into back and front for iZ3D. Quality was good even we made upscaling for iZ3D resolution.

Now we need to "put" this board into next model of iZ3D. We also need to prepare console SDK for game developers to help them to support 3d making left / right on console side. If I did not explain well what we made - pls notify me.

[BlackQ]

Hi, chrisdfw!

Outputs work does not depends on card as well as interface (control center) - only core of driver (injection and left and right generation depends on GPU strongly) - thus if shutter will work with GF 7900 it will work with ATI and vice versa. BUT issue is that we need to be sure that left image comes when left eye is open - this is sync issue we are talking about - we have no clear vision how PC will inform ED glasses that left image is there now and left eye has to be open...

[BlackQ]

Hi, ssiu!

OK - let's try to analyze

iZ3D have not additional LC panel (LC itself plus backlight plus electronics) - we have LC layer only - no second backlight (expensive part of LCD), integrated electronics

Zalman has special micro polarizer - do you how much is this? I know I think we are competitive here

For shutter based approach you need to have glasses with electronic.... 100 USD per pair... - still not so bad

[BlackQ]

FINAL POINT

First of all let me say thanks to all who came , for all who is 3d enthusiasts and for all who trust us and our products.

Of course, I'm going to continue to be here as "Hamlet's father shadow" and would like to share information and answer question. My feeling is that we all have a great chance to 3d industry big and mass market and I want to participate in this chance execution.

Thank to all again and CU later!

Vadim aka BlackQ

[yuriythebest]

personally I don't find the reflectiveness an issue- maybe it's because of the way the iz3d is positioned to my room (not directly behind a window or light source). After initially adjusting I now find the reflectiveness quite cool and stylish actually.

[yomer]

Hi, yomer!

We made special board and small demo game like freebie for Wii - game generated left and right and board converted it into back and front for iZ3D. Quality was good even we made upscaling for iZ3D resolution.

Now we need to "put" this board into next model of iZ3D. We also need to prepare console SDK for game developers to help them to support 3d making left / right on console side. If I did not explain well what we made - pls notify me.

Perfectly clear, I think.

Example: One signal output with half the horizontal resolution with the front image, and the other half with the back image.... but wouldn't that halve the final resolution?
Unless, the console could output at 60fps and with that send 30 frames for the front and 30 for the back. I know, it's more complicated(refresh rate and stuff like that) but I'm trying to simplify it. How far am I from your idea?

[fReAq]

This is all very excellent. Im impressed and it is pleasant to see all the big other companies suddenly perk up and want some of this holy grail driver! You guys are well positioned I believe, can I buy some shares!?
Now regarding the SG support, you have said that you can get the page flipping to occur at the same rate as the games fixed v-sync rate (is that right?)
In this case I believe it would be quite simple to make a square wave generator with adjustable phase to sync up the glasses manually (in about 2-3 seconds of phase adjustment).
What do you think? I will get to work on such a circuit if it is feasable. Only issue is whether or not the buffer rate is always matched to the v-sync exactly by the game setting...
Do you think a 85hz vsync would be reliable and definite frequency coming from the game (or video card), and that your driver would page flip at exactly 42.5hz for each eye frame at this frequency?

[fReAq]

I think RageDemon might have already designed a circuit for a similar purpose... is that right Rage? For the blue tint problem back 2 years ago.

[BlackShark]

Hi, BlackShark!
I understand your point about 2d and 3d monitor, but let me give you two sample I'm trying to use in our marketing strategy:
1. Cars: Folkswagen and Volvo - both are mass, but Volvo is more expensive, but people are ready to pay, because it is about "safety" even both are safe enough....
2. LCD versus CRT - LCD was bad long period of time, even it because mass market (in term of response time, colors, white temperature), where is CRT....
I'm not competitive gamer and I can not separate all 16 mln colors - why do I need 2ms not 5ms and ideal color gamut losing nice 3d effect?
just ideas ...

I think i understand what you're trying to explain.
You say you believe that 3D will be the next "must have" feature and that people will be ready to sacrifice other tech specs to get 3D right ?
Like when people switched from CRT to LCDs because of ergonomics, and not looking at the huge flaws like response time, contrasts, refresh rates etc... isn't it ?

I'm not that sure it will happen, or maybe am i asking for too much from such a young technology. After all the LCD boom only happened after many screen generation.

Anti-reflection (AR) coating can be added for some cost (and brightness), but this is not common now in industry - many monitors have not AR - we'll make customer research about this issue I think

I have two monitors and i think none of them have any kind of anti reflection coating.
They are :
Philips 190B (yes that's old)
Samsung 226BW (S-series)

Both have a mate surface and produce no reflections. I know that some manufacturers add a glossy filter to make colours and contrasts look better but produce lots of reflections.
I've never met an iZ3D monitor in person but when i look at some photographs of the 22" model i clearly see lots of reflections, which make me believe there is a glossy filter added on the monitor.

This is how my 226bw looks like with a flash.


So is it a glossy filter (the kind i don't like) or is it something else you can't escape due to the stacking of two Liquid Cristal layers ? (which i doesn't sound logic to me)

[stee1hed]

I'm sitting here with my shiny new TDVisor waiting for a working gaming solution to my setup to appear. I've tried hacking the registry with nvidia's drivers and blah blah yadda yadda I've had no success yet.

I need side by side output support for my rig. I believe the HMD mode in the iZ3D drivers are for systems with 2 video outputs. My laptop has 1 dvi output that goes to a Matrox DualHead2Go where the video is split vertically and output to each eye in the TDVisor.

Will 1.09 support side by side to a single output? I've got all this brand new hardware just waiting to be unleashed and nothing to tell it what to do. I've watched all the videos I could find with stereoscopic player (great program) and ran around in the Le Cauchemar game/demo enough. I'd pay $100 USD easy for a good gaming solution.

[wuhlei]

cool thanks for the good news!

[chrisjarram]

Hi BlackQ,

I've been discussing the Shutterglasses sync issue with my business partner (we are a software / electronics company) and wondered about the possibility to be able to resolve this with a simple driver tweak. Would it be possible to do something as simple as insert a red, followed by a blue full screen frame one after the other which a simple hardware dongle can look for to identify which frame is which at the start of the rendering train? (e.g. got RED, thats left eye, next frame blue, right eye, and after that every subsequent frame is synced properly). We think if it was we could put together a simple device in a day which could sit there waiting for this signal and then sync properly the eDimensional glasses for example. It would be a way to get around the sync issue... what do you think, and do you know of any problems which would stop this from working? It seems there may be a very easy solution for this relatively minor problem and it would be a crime not to attempt to fix it if that is the case!

Thanks,
Chris J

[BlackQ]

Hello!

To yomer:
Yes, we are thinking about shutter type output instead of half/half approach. alternatively we can use wide textures, but consoles output parameters can be strong bottleneck

To fReAq:
Contact through PM - it is a good moment we are selling some...
Regarding SG: of course additional device is possible to be a buffer between SG and monitor and PC, but from our experience it is very expensive way to bring such of device to the market - we had experience like that - did I understand you correct? And you are right about this issue: "Only issue is whether or not the buffer rate is always matched to the v-sync exactly by the game setting.." - this is our biggest issue

To BlackShark:
Yes, we are thinking about the situation when 3D ("ergonomic" in your example) may initially overcome some disadvantages - not for all, but for many (let say 1% of gamers). And don't forget there are still a lot of "tricky" numbers in 2D LCD industry as well - response time is a good sample (g-t-g vs b-t-w etc etc ). And thank you for AR issue clarification through photos

To stee1hed:
Wait a sec!!! You have it now for 50$! HMD / Dual Projector mode of 1.08 works with TD Visor at 100% level - nothing will change in 1.09 here except it may become free (not depends on us

[BlackQ]

oops! it was early "submit" click sorry chrisjarram

here the answer to your post: yes, we have "marked shutter" version as well - this means each frame for 16 (need double check) marked using special specs - we can release it as part of 1.09 beta for test - if it will help to increase SG compatibility I'll be happy. Of course, marking specs will be published

[chrisjarram]

oops! it was early "submit" click sorry chrisjarram

here the answer to your post: yes, we have "marked shutter" version as well - this means each frame for 16 (need double check) marked using special specs - we can release it as part of 1.09 beta for test - if it will help to increase SG compatibility I'll be happy. Of course, marking specs will be published

BlackQ, that is fantastic! Yes, yes - please do release this, 16 frames is not a problem, we can then develop a box which allows the eDimensional glasses to be used. You are extremely helpful and this will make a lot of people happy!

Thanks so much...
Chris J

[stee1hed]

Hello!
To stee1hed:
Wait a sec!!! You have it now for 50$! HMD / Dual Projector mode of 1.08 works with TD Visor at 100% level - nothing will change in 1.09 here except it may become free (not depends on us

My preliminary testing has not been good so I just wanted to confirm with you... My TDVisor is NOT sourced from 2 video outputs from the laptop. One video output is fed into a Matrox DualHead2Go and the 2 outputs are what feed the TDVisor.

The only way to get it to work with this setup (from what I've seen) is output to 1 video out at 1600x600 (which gets split to vertically) using the side by side method, left eye first.

Are you saying that 1.08 support side by side output to one monitor using the 'dual projectors' method? If so, is there a certain setup the driver is looking for, like does it have to be the primary monitor?

[BlackQ]

Hi, stee1hed!

OK - understand now - new TD VIsor model they announced which we have in our lab has two inputs .... thus dual projector mode is fine for new model only. No 1.08 does not support left and right side by side, only iZ3D back and front side by side ...

[stee1hed]

Like I said, $100 easy. What do you need? $200? $500?

[BlackQ]

do you mean for left / right side by side? No this is not an issue of money atm - I assume we'll release it a bit later, because of some business issue

[stee1hed]

Stupid business always gets in the way of cool stuff!

[Sabre2552]

Hey, as the middle of the week approaches, I was just wondering if things are still on schedule for a beta of 1.09 to release this week? Could we also possibly have a solidified date? Thanks!

[LukePC1]

Hey, as the middle of the week approaches, I was just wondering if things are still on schedule for a beta of 1.09 to release this week? Could we also possibly have a solidified date? Thanks!

... like: "stay away all night, because it will be released sometime in it!"
or would you like something like:
"18 o'clock gmt+4" better when it delays for half a day then?
But if a fixed date+ time was possible it would be realy cool 8)

[BlackQ]

driver just left our lab and going to final test before beta release

[ssiu]

If NVIDIA plans to fold their S3D driver into the main forceware package (e.g. starting 180.xx series, just install the main forceware package and the S3D functions will be there, no separate install required), then the IZ3D driver needs to work when NVIDIA S3D driver is installed (but disabled). (I understand that IZ3D 1.08 doesn't work 100% when NVIDIA S3D driver is installed.)

I don't know if NVIDIA will do that or not (but it makes sense to me, if they are going to start pushing S3D), but I hope IZ3D thought about it and is prepared for it ...