Deus Ex: Human Revolution ATI only! Should we be worried

[andysonofbob]

I have been gaming in 3D for 2 years now and have so far seen minimal benefits of the dev being on board with 3D. TBH it is often dreadful with locked convergence etc. I have also mentioned it can be risky.

Now Eidos has, it appears locked 3D for ATI users only, I really REALLY hate to say it but I was right. Graphic PR wars will result in AAA titles being locked unless you own either nVidia or ATI.

I have mentioned on all the main devs forums that 3D owners should ask for more options in graphics menu and not to worry about 3D because all games typically work in 3D. I am very frustrated.

[Neil]

How has it been locked? In what way?

Regards,
Neil

[andysonofbob]

Confirmation by Eidos: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread ... ost1655322" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People's findings: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?show ... &p=1283016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A rather large

[Neil]

Do Nvidia GeForce 3D Vision drivers or glasses run on AMD graphics cards? Do the special optimizations for Nvidia drivers (e.g. 3D menu options) work on AMD GPUs?

This isn't surprising at all.

Regards,
Neil

[andysonofbob]

Yes but so far, all games have 'worked' on every 3D solution.

This is the first time where one or the other 3D solutions have been purposefully locked out in order to support one 3D solution. To me this seems daft and not economically sound. Who would want to invest in a 3D solution if it only works on certain games? The appeal for 3D for many has been compatibility, I would never have invested in a set of glasses if I was unsure of which 3D solution an AAA title would support.

[Likay]

Eidos are known for taking cuts like this. I remember and was affected by the two tomb raider underworld extensions which came out as exclusive dlc for the 360 only...
This isn't unusual today and this "model" seems expanding due to stockholders cry for quick money.
If it gets worse i'll be going cryo with 3d for a while. Well, not really but....

[Neil]

Yes but so far, all games have 'worked' on every 3D solution.

This is the first time where one or the other 3D solutions have been purposefully locked out in order to support one 3D solution. To me this seems daft and not economically sound. Who would want to invest in a 3D solution if it only works on certain games? The appeal for 3D for many has been compatibility, I would never have invested in a set of glasses if I was unsure of which 3D solution an AAA title would support.

That isn't true at all. Why do you think Nvidia is being somehow locked out? HD3D is only supported by AMD, the same way Nvidia's proprietary left/right technology is only supported by Nvidia GPUs. The only reason the game doesn't yet run (notice that I highlighted "yet") on the Nvidia solution is Nvidia needs time to write a profile for it in a future driver - much like countless other games that need profiles by driver developers.

The games that do run on DDD, iZ3D, and Nvidia drivers do so because they all had the opportunity to write profiles for their drivers. This had nothing to do with game developer input. The exception to the rule are cases where game developers gave driver makers (e.g. Nvidia) early builds of the game so they can optimize in advance compared to the competition. This is nothing new, it's just a point for the red team instead of the green team - nothing more.

Regards,
Neil

[cybereality]

This sucks if its true. I really wanted to play this game in 3D.

[andysonofbob]

That isn't true at all. Why do you think Nvidia is being somehow locked out? HD3D is only supported by AMD, the same way Nvidia's proprietary left/right technology is only supported by Nvidia GPUs. The only reason the game doesn't yet run (notice that I highlighted "yet") on the Nvidia solution is Nvidia needs time to write a profile for it in a future driver - much like countless other games that need profiles by driver developers.

The games that do run on DDD, iZ3D, and Nvidia drivers do so because they all had the opportunity to write profiles for their drivers. This had nothing to do with game developer input. The exception to the rule are cases where game developers gave driver makers (e.g. Nvidia) early builds of the game so they can optimize in advance compared to the competition. This is nothing new, it's just a point for the red team instead of the green team - nothing more.

Regards,
Neil

Hi Neil

I am suprised by this. As a 3D Vision user it was my understanding that nVidia's drivers worked by translating certain information (like the Z Buffer) found within Direct X to render the output in stereoscopic 3D to the chosen output mode. This is why all of my Direct X games, even those without profiles e.g. GTA4, Project Nomads, even independant projects that use Direct X like work in 3D e.g. the Product. Obviously some games work better than others where things like 2D shadows, textures etc are concerned but I have yet to see a game where the main infrastructure (if you know what I mean) like a building's walls etc of the game fail to render in 3D. Textures on these walls often fail but the wall remains. Even games which are fairly shocking e.g. Shogun 2 have terrain which renders in 3D.

The only games that sometimes wont work are only those where the devs have had input and have incorporated built in stereoscopic modes eg Starcraft 2, Avatar etc. Hopefully I am being paranoid and these issues can be fixed by drivers but posts by nVidia 'seem' to suggest otherwise.

Incidedntly the information on this site is excellent, if I am seriously mistaken how nVidia converts games into 3D (I have only read the odd magazine articles so this could be likely) I would be grateful if you could provide a link.

Thanks

edit... Quote andrewf from nVidia

"Hi

A few comments

- We have supported Quad buffered in our driver for two years allowing game developers to use it in their game. Avatar and Crysis 2 both used it. Just last week AMD finally released their support. Developers can use both modes if they want to get the same effect on each GPU. Some choose to do it, some don't for whatever reason.

- We have supported converting existing games automatically into 3D using our software for alomost 3 years, while our competition doesn't. We think this is a good feature for users. I don't have any information why AMD doesn't support this.

- All of our new 3D Vision monitors support HDMI 1.4 3D which means you can connect them to an AMD GPU and get HD3D support"

I guess the bit I highlighted is what I am most concerned about. ATI users could play nVidia 3D Ready games but nVidia users cannot play the ATI equivalent. How is this not worrying? Also, the game (beta) worked with nVidia a week ago.

[Fredz]

I guess the bit I highlighted is what I am most concerned about. ATI users could play nVidia 3D Ready games but nVidia users cannot play the ATI equivalent. How is this not worrying? Also, the game (beta) worked with nVidia a week ago.

The bit you highlighted doesn't say that, it only says that NVIDIA consider himself a pionner in the S3D field on PC, nothing more.

[Neil]

Hi Neil

I am suprised by this. As a 3D Vision user it was my understanding that nVidia's drivers worked by translating certain information (like the Z Buffer) found within Direct X to render the output in stereoscopic 3D to the chosen output mode. This is why all of my Direct X games, even those without profiles e.g. GTA4, Project Nomads, even independant projects that use Direct X like work in 3D e.g. the Product. Obviously some games work better than others where things like 2D shadows, textures etc are concerned but I have yet to see a game where the main infrastructure (if you know what I mean) like a building's walls etc of the game fail to render in 3D. Textures on these walls often fail but the wall remains. Even games which are fairly shocking e.g. Shogun 2 have terrain which renders in 3D.

The only games that sometimes wont work are only those where the devs have had input and have incorporated built in stereoscopic modes eg Starcraft 2, Avatar etc. Hopefully I am being paranoid and these issues can be fixed by drivers but posts by nVidia 'seem' to suggest otherwise.

Incidedntly the information on this site is excellent, if I am seriously mistaken how nVidia converts games into 3D (I have only read the odd magazine articles so this could be likely) I would be grateful if you could provide a link.

Thanks

DDD, iZ3D, and Nvidia drivers all work under the same principles. They all capture the DirectX API calls while the game is being played, and extrapolate a left and right camera view based on this information. There are slight differences here and there as to how the drivers inject into the game, but the core principles are the same. Using DDD as an example, they too have a generic profile that runs with countless games that are not listed with an active profile. iZ3D hasn't had a real driver update in months, and you can still run several games in 3D with their solution.

There have been instances where games are incompatible for a short time on other driver solutions with the exception of Nvidia. When Resident Evil was released, it was unplayable on DDD and iZ3D drivers. After some profile updates, the game ended up running better on DDD and iZ3D complete with out of screen effects compared to the Nvidia depth-only result (convergence was locked out). Bioshock 2 had a similar issue, and again ended up playing better on DDD with a profile update.

Nvidia stands out really well when they have advanced copies of the game so they can optimize in advance. This is a business/marketing advantage, not a technology advantage. Some things they do really well when implemented by the game developer directly (e.g. dynamic crosshairs from the game itself). SLI compatibility and better Punkbuster support is another big plus for the Nvidia camp, though I don't know how long they can hold onto this difference.

Regards,
Neil

[Neil]

Just wanted to add a point:

Hi

A few comments

- We have supported Quad buffered in our driver for two years allowing game developers to use it in their game. Avatar and Crysis 2 both used it. Just last week AMD finally released their support. Developers can use both modes if they want to get the same effect on each GPU. Some choose to do it, some don't for whatever reason.

- We have supported converting existing games automatically into 3D using our software for alomost 3 years, while our competition doesn't. We think this is a good feature for users. I don't have any information why AMD doesn't support this.

- All of our new 3D Vision monitors support HDMI 1.4 3D which means you can connect them to an AMD GPU and get HD3D support

Shame on you, Andrew!

It is true that Nvidia supports quad-buffer support for their drivers. The first real example of this was Avatar: The Game. Ubisoft made an active effort to support as many 3D solutions as they could, so they natively supported Nvidia (their proprietary option), interlaced, side by side modes, Sensio and RealD codecs, and more.

AMD's quad buffer option was only made available within the last year, and Deus-Ex is the first real implementation of this. While HD3D promotes this as an "open" solution (the SDK is publicly available for download), it is still limited to AMD GPUs until something is more widely adopted. I don't want to romanticize this as until both Nvidia and AMD support a single Quad Buffer solution, they are only as open as their own GPU brands. Nvidia has a string of games that have unique 3D menu options that are limited to their branded 3D games (e.g. Arkham Asylum, Bioshock 2), so they are in no position to cry foul.

It's also incorrect to claim that AMD doesn't support "2D/3D conversion". This is just semantics as everyone knows AMD's position has always been to work with third party driver developers like DDD and iZ3D to fill the driver gap. It's the same end result, just a slightly different path of accomplishing this.

Last but not least, HDMI 1.4 support wasn't a choice out of the goodness of Nvidia's heart. I mean, come on! HDMI 1.4 is the new HDTV industry standard which currently has a ceiling rate of 720P in 3D on PC which is no threat to Nvidia's high resolution PC space. According to Nvidia's 3D monitor specs, it is impossible for the 3D Vision displays to work with dual-link DVI with alternative glasses or solutions unless they are using an alternative port like DisplayPort 1.2 or the low resolution HDMI 1.4 (current available version).

I'm kind of amazed that Nvidia is taking this stance. Getting Deus-Ex to work with Nvidia should be as simple as a driver profile, which their competitors have been doing for years. This should be treated as an opportunity to say "Who cares what AMD does - Nvidia can get the game to run too".

I'm not backing one solution over another as I would like to see industry-wide 3D gaming standards. As I mentioned before, this is just a point for the Red team based on practices we have seen for a few years now.

Regards,
Neil

[BlackShark]

That is correct, at the moment, only AMD HD3D is supported.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.p ... ostcount=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Farther on the same page

The in-game stereoscopic 3D option is only intended for the game built-in stereoscopic 3D support which is only for AMD HD3D right now.

The game does nothing to disallow any other stereoscopic solutions to work. So you are free to try it on 3D Vision or with IZ3D, and it willl work as well as those title independent solutions are able to make it work. But you will have to enable that through the settings for those particular solutions, and based on what some people are seeing, those solutions do not appear to work very well.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.p ... stcount=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words : there is no blocking mechanism in the game that prevents Nvidia 3D Vision or other 3D drivers to work with the game.
If the driver cannot hook the game or has bad quality results : it's because the game renders like that already.

The HD3D exclusive mode is a native internal 3D rendering that currently only outputs to AMD HD3D output.
The Eidos guys seem to voluntarily remain vague on whether or not they will add support for other 3D outputs later.

[cybereality]

I did not have issue with Andrew Fear's response, it seemed pretty straight-forward to me. AMD just happen to support the developers of this title, and likely paid good money for them to implement Eyefinity and HD3D support. This is not any different than Nvidia's "Way its meant to be played" program and the titles that have been optimized for Nvidia 3D Vision. Of course it would be great if both companies could support a standard quad-buffer format, but that is just not the reality right now.

[Neil]

I was just teasing Andrew - I wasn't seriously scolding him. I tried to make that clear with all the extra smileys ( )!

Anyone here get the game yet? I'm currently testing it out myself.

Regards,
Neil

[ERP]

I did not have issue with Andrew Fear's response, it seemed pretty straight-forward to me. AMD just happen to support the developers of this title, and likely paid good money for them to implement Eyefinity and HD3D support. This is not any different than Nvidia's "Way its meant to be played" program and the titles that have been optimized for Nvidia 3D Vision. Of course it would be great if both companies could support a standard quad-buffer format, but that is just not the reality right now.

There is very rarely actually hard cash exchanged in these deals, it's usually nothing more than cross marketing deals.

[cybereality]

There is very rarely actually hard cash exchanged in these deals, it's usually nothing more than cross marketing deals.

That may be true, but its still worth money in the end.

[Jaeger]

Now that there is a wrapper you can play Deus Ex:HR with 3D vision and devs say that support for 3D vision will be in next patch. That's nice right? I think not if there is some major changes in next patch for the way 3D is done. At the moment it's very nice on menus with popout and everything but in game it's just 2D plane inside monitor!! Depth slider just changes how deep this 2D plane is...separation is same for all object far and close.

you can find wrapper this thread at Eidos Forum.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread ... 423&page=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cybereality]

Thanks Jaeger!