Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:11 pm
From my sight then this piece of software is not 3D driver
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Nor is there any need to patronise I am not 'getting upset about it'.. it is a beta, not an alpha (i.e. should be 'feature complete', but not debugged thouroughly - there is a difference), and these things should have been previously considered before release, thats all. I speak for a lot of people and this is needed in order to get things moving - We are all here to try and fix this, and I was trying to explain to you there are issues you have overlooked, simple asRAGEdemon wrote:Software problems indeed, due to glitches in the driver. There is no reason why they can't be easily fixed. Many drivers in the past have done exactly that.
I believe we are talking about the hardware side - getting glasses to flicker in sync to what will be a proper page flipped display regardless of the performance of the card or the FPS.
This is a Beta driver my friend. Think of it as a "proof of concept". Perhaps not useful, but it shows great promise. In the final releases after the bugs are fixed, it will be what we are looking for.
Currently it's a free trial Beta. No need to get upset about it
RAGEdemon wrote:So it seems to be a driver issue.
This is exactly the point RAGEdemon, they have been aware of this for the last couple of months at least - it has not only just been reported. It would seem little has been done to address the problem however- perhaps because it is more than just a 'non-issue'... BlackQ how about clearing this up?RAGEdemon wrote:Hopefully, this will be a non-issue now that it has been reported and they are aware of it
TBH I think we'd all be mortified in the CTO of a 3d-driver company didn't already own some!RAGEdemon wrote:I think someone needs to send BlackQ a pair of shutter glasses for his birthday present
No worries.RAGEdemon wrote:Apologies if I sounded patronizing. It was not my intention.
We are all here as friends
My point is, and please don't take this the wrong way - there is every chance that the driver issue can be fixed since older drivers have never had problems with that aspect.
On the other hand, there is little chance that the DDC issue can be fixed in software from what I have heard. Keeping that in mind, I am mostly concerned about the signal generation and how to fix this side of things
-- Shahzad.
could you plz explain it in Laymen terms....The IR Emitter doesn't work. The DDC signal shows 5V constant instead of a square wave averaging ~ 2.5V. Might you be able to confirm?
Problem is not with Hi/low level signal for Odd/even frames. Simple solution is put counter (79HCT93) on vertical synchronization pin. Problem is with real R/L sequence what iZ3D driver produce. It may be L-R-L-R-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-R etc. Without direct L/R signal from driver to glasses this doesn't work. nVidia produce strictly L-R-L-R-L-R sequence and this may be problem. What if DDC signal is HW controled with actual L/R buffer sending to RAMDAC information?RAGEdemon wrote:It is quite simple, friend.
To synchronize the shutters to the display, the videocard outputs a square signal on pin 12 of the VGA output or pin 7 of the DVI output. This pin is usually used to communicate DDC data between the display device and the video card but it is "hijacked" by Stereo3D drivers.
When the frame for one eye is being drawn, the card outputs a high (+5v), and when the frame for the other eye is being drawn, it outputs a low (0v) something like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/e ... _T.svg.png
-- Shahzad.
With respect, I wish people would stop banging on about this being a 'beta'... a beta is supposed to be 'feature complete', if not it should be deemed an alpha This conversation regarding the shutters has been going on with iz3d a long time (long before the release of this driver)... we are trying to help iz3d here, is that not giving them a break? It is not paying them money, but it is doing work for them.. I think this deserves credit in its own right. Personally I have invested my own time in discussions and research for marker formats, so in terms of who could do better, if you are reading this thread you will note we are trying to use our combined knowledge to give iz3d the info they need, so between us we are bettering this driver. The actual driver will not be free either, it is $50-$100 per output so is important it is working properly for this reason. Incidentally on that note though, what did you pay nVidia for? I've always had their 3d shutter drivers for free, unlike iz3d who are going to be charging...InCytE wrote:Got to ask. Sorry not an electronics type here, but always willing to learn.What does DCC stand for?
Also I have to say that this is a free trial BETA. Give iZ3D a break. Who here could do better? Did you pay them money? I paid nVidia and they dumped me like a cheap one night stand (usually that doesn’t bother me, but this time it did). And it was even worst (proper folk don’t use the kind of language needed here with their outdoor voice) when it comes to E-D. I've been 3Ding for about seven years and believe it or not it's getting easier and better. Although more expensive.
This is what their marked shutter output is for (and why I've requested they at least also try and support a standard like Stereographics WLC). However, this is not desirable as it requires extra hardware, but at least it works around the problem and provides a solution for it.Borg_Rootan wrote:Problem is not with Hi/low level signal for Odd/even frames. Simple solution is put counter (79HCT93) on vertical synchronization pin. Problem is with real R/L sequence what iZ3D driver produce. It may be L-R-L-R-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-R etc. Without direct L/R signal from driver to glasses this doesn't work. nVidia produce strictly L-R-L-R-L-R sequence and this may be problem. What if DDC signal is HW controled with actual L/R buffer sending to RAMDAC information?RAGEdemon wrote:It is quite simple, friend.
To synchronize the shutters to the display, the videocard outputs a square signal on pin 12 of the VGA output or pin 7 of the DVI output. This pin is usually used to communicate DDC data between the display device and the video card but it is "hijacked" by Stereo3D drivers.
When the frame for one eye is being drawn, the card outputs a high (+5v), and when the frame for the other eye is being drawn, it outputs a low (0v) something like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/e ... _T.svg.png
-- Shahzad.
Interlaced option doesnt work with the eDims afaik.shonofear wrote:ok gottcha now, cheers.
in mean time like others I will just use Interlaced option,
but a few games dont load up though (BF2)
and i still got old NV stereo for backup
I think that is the problem, too.Borg_Rootan wrote:Problem is not with Hi/low level signal for Odd/even frames. Simple solution is put counter (79HCT93) on vertical synchronization pin. Problem is with real R/L sequence what iZ3D driver produce. It may be L-R-L-R-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-R etc. Without direct L/R signal from driver to glasses this doesn't work. nVidia produce strictly L-R-L-R-L-R sequence and this may be problem. What if DDC signal is HW controled with actual L/R buffer sending to RAMDAC information?RAGEdemon wrote:It is quite simple, friend.
To synchronize the shutters to the display, the videocard outputs a square signal on pin 12 of the VGA output or pin 7 of the DVI output. This pin is usually used to communicate DDC data between the display device and the video card but it is "hijacked" by Stereo3D drivers.
When the frame for one eye is being drawn, the card outputs a high (+5v), and when the frame for the other eye is being drawn, it outputs a low (0v) something like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/e ... _T.svg.png
-- Shahzad.
I thought even their own driver was using interlaced to work on AMD chips? And the ED.exe should create the stuff needed to sync/flicker...chrisjarram wrote:Interlaced option doesnt work with the eDims afaik.shonofear wrote:ok gottcha now, cheers.
in mean time like others I will just use Interlaced option,
but a few games dont load up though (BF2)
and i still got old NV stereo for backup
1) DDC signal works in market mode now?chrisjarram wrote:Borg_Rootan wrote:RAGEdemon wrote:It is quite simple, friend.
This is what their marked shutter output is for (and why I've requested they at least also try and support a standard like Stereographics WLC). However, this is not desirable as it requires extra hardware, but at least it works around the problem and provides a solution for it.
In terms of the sequence, this was the big deal when iz3d were making their simple-shutter output. If this cannot be guaranteed L-R-L-R-L-R then what is the point? (hint, don't bring up the 'beta driver' bit again cos iz3d were aware of this long before the release ).
nVidia presumably use h/w page flipping of some sort, populate 2 image buffers (one for left, one for right) and then just flip between them for each eye, only re-populating when new frames are available from the game's frame output. This guarantees the monitor output at least is L-R-L-R-L-R and takes away entirely the dependency on the frame rate.
I raised the issue earlier in this thread that if iz3d have a room full of engineers there MUST be someone there who can monitor what nVidia's driver is doing and replicate the low level calls. If the frame ordering could be sorted out, even without the DDC code, then the community can pick up on it and solve the DDC problem - voila, we have eDimensional glasses working with the iz3d driver!
Well said that man!LukePC1 wrote:
So could we concentrate on getting Shutters to work and not blame everyone else?
I thought it just wouldn't run with 64bit... It seems I mixed up some of the stuff here... Well it was realy a lot to read for just half a day or soVadersApp wrote:@Luke
you said VR920 is working. I tried it on my xp 32 8800GTX computer with driver installed. All i have got was the possibilty to change seperation, but it seperated the two displays the same amount, so there was no S3d.
stepsbarto wrote:Hi all,
I just want to add my experience with the new driver :
I'm quite happy with it because it works with shutter glasses in interlaced
mode (with lineblanker). many games that dont work with nvidias driver work great
with iz3d ...very nice ... (3d adventures mostly...)
The iz3d driver is really much better than nvidias one ... !!
For now only with CRT ... in hires ...
It would be great if it would work in real pageflip mode ....
With shutter I have only flickering image ...I wonder if this could be solved
with additional hardware ....as mentioned above.
@chrisjarram .....you said something about stereographics emitter/controller ..
I've found some "stereo enabler" ...could this work with "marked shutter" .. as a controller ??
http://reald-corporate.com/scientific/stereoenabler.asp
" The StereoEnabler is an intelligent pass-through VGA connector for the
monitor and outputs the stereo sync signal to an infrared emitter or
ZScreen controller via a 3-pin mini-DIN plug. The sync signal is
transmitted to the StereoEnabler by coding the bottom raster line of the
video signal (blue-line code) and the intelligent controller generates the
pulse signal from this video signal. Additional power required by the
emitter is achieved by plugging in the PS/2 connector on the
StereoEnabler into the keyboard PS/2 connector on the PC. The emitter or
controller interprets the sync signal to shutter the eyewear or ZScreen to
separate the left and right eye images, giving the user the ability to view
in stereo...."
what do you think ?
regards
steps
You know, that you still need a high power GPU to run it then with little flickering?chrisjarram wrote:Hi,
That does look interesting, though I'm not sure how the compatibility would be with more common products like eDIm - addtional hardware may still be needed. _However_, I think if this can generate the sync signal (as a rise / fall for each eye) according to a blue line signal on the bottom row of (for example) each image and just output that at a DDC code via a standard 3-pin sync cable it may well be a much more ideal solution than the WLC (White Line Code) I have already discussed with iz3d. WLC would only be supported via more expensive Stereographics emitters, but this cheaper solution may allow us to work with many different shutter glasses (which can take this standard 3 pin DDC input).
This would solve both the glasses signal generation and the frame ordering problem.
Could a few others please look at this and offer input? What do you think?
Vadim, could you possibly investiage this too? This product is only $89 so is affordable to most if you could support the Blue line code with your driver, and it may be a very good intermediate solution to the problem.
Thanks for your input, steps!
stepsbarto wrote:Hi all,
I just want to add my experience with the new driver :
I'm quite happy with it because it works with shutter glasses in interlaced
mode (with lineblanker). many games that dont work with nvidias driver work great
with iz3d ...very nice ... (3d adventures mostly...)
The iz3d driver is really much better than nvidias one ... !!
For now only with CRT ... in hires ...
It would be great if it would work in real pageflip mode ....
With shutter I have only flickering image ...I wonder if this could be solved
with additional hardware ....as mentioned above.
@chrisjarram .....you said something about stereographics emitter/controller ..
I've found some "stereo enabler" ...could this work with "marked shutter" .. as a controller ??
http://reald-corporate.com/scientific/stereoenabler.asp
" The StereoEnabler is an intelligent pass-through VGA connector for the
monitor and outputs the stereo sync signal to an infrared emitter or
ZScreen controller via a 3-pin mini-DIN plug. The sync signal is
transmitted to the StereoEnabler by coding the bottom raster line of the
video signal (blue-line code) and the intelligent controller generates the
pulse signal from this video signal. Additional power required by the
emitter is achieved by plugging in the PS/2 connector on the
StereoEnabler into the keyboard PS/2 connector on the PC. The emitter or
controller interprets the sync signal to shutter the eyewear or ZScreen to
separate the left and right eye images, giving the user the ability to view
in stereo...."
what do you think ?
regards
steps
This is great news!!Mercy Yamada wrote:@genetic
@RAGEdemon
My Z800 works with the iZ3D driver.
I am impressed!!
Hi, yes, I do know thatLukePC1 wrote:You know, that you still need a high power GPU to run it then with little flickering?chrisjarram wrote:Hi,
That does look interesting, though I'm not sure how the compatibility would be with more common products like eDIm - addtional hardware may still be needed. _However_, I think if this can generate the sync signal (as a rise / fall for each eye) according to a blue line signal on the bottom row of (for example) each image and just output that at a DDC code via a standard 3-pin sync cable it may well be a much more ideal solution than the WLC (White Line Code) I have already discussed with iz3d. WLC would only be supported via more expensive Stereographics emitters, but this cheaper solution may allow us to work with many different shutter glasses (which can take this standard 3 pin DDC input).
This would solve both the glasses signal generation and the frame ordering problem.
Could a few others please look at this and offer input? What do you think?
Vadim, could you possibly investiage this too? This product is only $89 so is affordable to most if you could support the Blue line code with your driver, and it may be a very good intermediate solution to the problem.
Thanks for your input, steps!
stepsbarto wrote:Hi all,
I just want to add my experience with the new driver :
I'm quite happy with it because it works with shutter glasses in interlaced
mode (with lineblanker). many games that dont work with nvidias driver work great
with iz3d ...very nice ... (3d adventures mostly...)
The iz3d driver is really much better than nvidias one ... !!
For now only with CRT ... in hires ...
It would be great if it would work in real pageflip mode ....
With shutter I have only flickering image ...I wonder if this could be solved
with additional hardware ....as mentioned above.
@chrisjarram .....you said something about stereographics emitter/controller ..
I've found some "stereo enabler" ...could this work with "marked shutter" .. as a controller ??
http://reald-corporate.com/scientific/stereoenabler.asp
" The StereoEnabler is an intelligent pass-through VGA connector for the
monitor and outputs the stereo sync signal to an infrared emitter or
ZScreen controller via a 3-pin mini-DIN plug. The sync signal is
transmitted to the StereoEnabler by coding the bottom raster line of the
video signal (blue-line code) and the intelligent controller generates the
pulse signal from this video signal. Additional power required by the
emitter is achieved by plugging in the PS/2 connector on the
StereoEnabler into the keyboard PS/2 connector on the PC. The emitter or
controller interprets the sync signal to shutter the eyewear or ZScreen to
separate the left and right eye images, giving the user the ability to view
in stereo...."
what do you think ?
regards
steps
This device would only create the signal, so if the output is 50FPS (2D) then it would be about 25Hz for each eye, since the signal is slower than the actual frame rate. But if you have highend GPU compared to the game then you should be able to get a reasonable refresh rate.
But maybe interlaced with a higher resolution would do the trick , too
summery:
FPS = refesh rate in Hz
before with NV driver: FPS maybe half of refresh rate
Thats no surprise, we know if your card can keep up then the stereo can potentially work. 60hz though? yeuch tbh though I didnt really upgrade my graphics card in anticpiation of this new driver to play GTR2 at SVGA resolution with all details on low!The_Doctor wrote:I set the resolution to 800*600 in GTR2, turned off all the details, everything on low, set the refresh to 60HZ and it's perfect stereo with shutterglasses in the game. If the fps go under 30 (60Hz/2) it turns to garbage, but over 30 and it is perfect (besides the headache inflicting 30Hz refresh of course).
that is with GTX280, right?The_Doctor wrote:I set the resolution to 800*600 in GTR2, turned off all the details, everything on low, set the refresh to 60HZ and it's perfect stereo with shutterglasses in the game. If the fps go under 30 (60Hz/2) it turns to garbage, but over 30 and it is perfect (besides the headache inflicting 30Hz refresh of course).
Exactly, iz3d need to fix this backbuffer support (on nvidia cards) or imo shutters are pretty much a no-go. I'd have thought it should be a priority tbh when you look at the number of views on this thread (most ever in such a short time on mtbs?)LukePC1 wrote:that is with GTX280, right?The_Doctor wrote:I set the resolution to 800*600 in GTR2, turned off all the details, everything on low, set the refresh to 60HZ and it's perfect stereo with shutterglasses in the game. If the fps go under 30 (60Hz/2) it turns to garbage, but over 30 and it is perfect (besides the headache inflicting 30Hz refresh of course).
I'd expect something better from that card (if it is not your PC slowing it down )
Well I think with these Hardware solution you should be able to get less flicker with quiet scenes and no "garbage" when frames drop...
I think the backbuffer stuff is NV's area and it needs access to the hardware. But I think it was said or at least hinted at before the release...
--> try to ask ATI for their backbuffer support
oh sorry man...The_Doctor wrote:It is with a 7900GTX, the 280 is gone, too much heath. But yes, as long as the card can keep more than your refresh the stereo works and stays in sync. Just testing, of coure it can't be used at 30 HZ.