John Carmack confirms 2nd dev kit is in the works

[blazespinnaker]

I think the idea is to have a wire that plugs into the smartphone clipped to your waist.

It's a pretty good idea.

Cheaper still, just use the smartphone + lenses. Good enough for watching movies and casual game play. I suspect a large swathe of the consumer market will be interested in this solution rather than shelling out another $500

You get AR to boot!

Price has to come down to about $20 or so though. Paying $80 for $1 in plastic and $5 lenses is inane. You don't even need massive molds to build these things. You can use shops like Protomold to print them in tiny batches.

[Dilip]

I really don't feel the cartridge would add a significant amount of weight. Plus the option to have a headset that is completely self-contained compared to having a tethered box that you have to attach to yourself for a consumer device would be a no brainer. The cartridge would essentially be an android phone. Without the screen and with making the cartridge case as light as possible I feel it wouldn't add a terrible amount of weight to the headset

Definately cartridge would add a significant amount of weight. Tell me the reason why current DK is having teethered box (Base) where all connections are happening ,its even not having any SocC+Ram+Battery still they have saperated it from HMD. Do you think if you add all this as cartridge in HMD will make it lighter?

Do you know Sony HMZ T-1,2,3 they all have base station and they don't have battery till T-2 only driver bord still sony saparted it form HMD, give it a nice thought you will get it. elese do the google.

I can bet Consumer Model V1 can't be without BaseStation or 'tethered box" its going to be there. Only Quetion is only add android supporting SoC studded pcb to it or not.

[Dilip]

I think the idea is to have a wire that plugs into the smartphone clipped to your waist.

No, idea is to give waistclip for Base of RIFT which is there in current DK and surely will be there in consumer model V1 too. Another idea was to add android supporting processor+ram+battery to Base to make rift self sufficent independent micro console. or add bettery to base and deriving processing power from your current smart phone over HDMI out (or video over micro usb but i don't know they have this tech or not)

Cheaper still, just use the smartphone + lenses. Good enough for watching movies and casual game play. I suspect a large swathe of the consumer market will be interested in this solution rather than shelling out another $500

Its altogether a different stuff and not in competition of RIFT. may be it will bring its own category where you can have few minutes fun while Commuting in tube seating at secure place or in your office or at collage's lunch break kind of. Serious VR and good game library is going to be on RIFT only. So many who appreciate good serious VR product and those who have longed for it from 90s or those who fascinated with Avatar or Matrix (there are millions such mind you!) will go with rift if it release as Refined product with good resolution +fov - dizziness @ ~300Usd there won't be match of it for short period at least for sure.

[yoshithedog]

Just a thought: base station w/ battery, SoC and whatnot could be worn like this, making the Rift both lightweight and virtually (heh) wireless.

[Fredz]

This looks more practical and accessible to me :



And there's kinda a long track record for such kind of attachments...

[MSat]

I know I'll be going against the grain here, but unlike a wireless system, I no longer really see the practicality of a truly mobile (integrated computer) HMD. Unlike a PSP or DS, it probably won't work well while travelling in a car/train/plane/etc, so where is the portability truly useful? Assuming the use of phone/tablet SoCs, he specs will be inferior to what we have in PCs. I understand that they're getting more capable, but chips like AMD's APUs are more powerful still while still being able to fit in enclosures smaller than laptops. If you have room to bring an HMD with you on the go, you can surely find room for something smaller than a laptop too.

Can someone give me a compelling use case example for a mobile HMD?

[brantlew]

Can someone give me a compelling use case example for a mobile HMD?

Beyond the obvious size and simplicity of a self-contained device everywhere...how about free ranging (laser-tag) arenas?

[zalo]

Get a Piksi and some GSM in there and you've got yourself a free range Google Maps fueled VR arena.

I suppose those were the original motivations for the Red Rovr, heh. It's great the rift plans support for mobile that we might still make it real.

Who knows, a truly mobile rift might support public installations where you're meant to whip your rift out of your back pack (that you always carry with you ) to connect to its little network and optical markers for interaction. BYOR

Or or two people meet in the middle of an open plain. They've forgotten the details of the disagreement, but they know there is only one way to settle it. Each don their rifts (that they always carry with them for such occasions) and the rods that will become the hilts of their virtual weapons. An observer might notice the glint of the retroreflective markers placed discretely in their clothing. They only need each other for reference since nothing else matters. Epic duel ensues etc.

I'll admit that while those particular scenarios might be rare (and are more humorous than explanatory), a system that can be made self-contained is versatile, and will improve the core experience while making completely new experiences possible. THAT is what I like the most.

[MSat]

Can someone give me a compelling use case example for a mobile HMD?

Beyond the obvious size and simplicity of a self-contained device everywhere...how about free ranging (laser-tag) arenas?

Already considered that example

In laser tag, you tend to wear a sensor vest anyway, right? So why not have a more capable computing platform like I mentioned stuffed in it?

I get the size and simplicity thing, but I still don't see how that translates into a compelling platform if it's not really useful "on the go".

[blazespinnaker]

The Rift will sell to hard core gamers, that's it. Maybe 500K units, with about $100 profit per unit after everything. That's about 50M.

[brantlew]

Get a Piksi and some GSM in there and you've got yourself a free range Google Maps fueled VR arena.

I suppose those were the original motivations for the Red Rovr, heh. It's great the rift plans support for mobile that we might still make it real.

Who knows, a truly mobile rift might support public installations where you're meant to whip your rift out of your back pack (that you always carry with you ) to connect to its little network and optical markers for interaction. BYOR

Or or two people meet in the middle of an open plain. They've forgotten the details of the disagreement, but they know there is only one way to settle it. Each don their rifts (that they always carry with them for such occasions) and the rods that will become the hilts of their virtual weapons. An observer might notice the glint of the retroreflective markers placed discretely in their clothing. They only need each other for reference since nothing else matters. Epic duel ensues etc.

I'll admit that while those particular scenarios might be rare (and are more humorous than explanatory), a system that can be made self-contained is versatile, and will improve the core experience while making completely new experiences possible. THAT is what I like the most.

As excited as I was about Red Rovr, I could clearly see the writing on the wall. Consumers were just not interested in free-range VR (witness the failure of the Atlas kickstarter). And as much as I would love to see these type of experiences, they really are at (or beyond) the edge of practicality and current technology. However, there are some really interesting casual and practical experiences that can be had on a mobile platform - else Carmack (arguably the world's foremost expert on PC graphics) wouldn't be spending 70+ hours a week working on it. But you'll just have to take my word on that

[Dilip]

There are some really interesting casual and practical experiences that can be had on a mobile platform - else Carmack (arguably the world's foremost expert on PC graphics) wouldn't be spending 70+ hours a week working on it. But you'll just have to take my word on that

That’s great news even images posted by him few time back having game background superimposed reality in a small window gave me clue of something going on AR front.

Its great news oculus considered Android and smart phone support as among supported platform. I know, regardless whatever skeptical people say, if oculus bring something within reach of mass supporting PC+ Mobility it will double the chances of success provided 'ergonomics' and 'ease of connectivity' and use kept at heart of design.

[Dilip]

@yoshithedog

Have you played Witcher1,2? i played both and i must say,i deeply loved both. i have played Witcher 2 four times at diffrent moral choices and difficulty & last time played in 3D.

Being Polish, can you influance CD PROJEKT RED to add rift support in WITCHER 3 WILD HUNT. i know it mostly going to be 3D VISION READY. it would double the joy if Native Rift Support added.

[yoshithedog]

@yoshithedog

Have you played Witcher1,2? i played both and i must say,i deeply loved both. i have played Witcher 2 four times at diffrent moral choices and difficulty & last time played in 3D.

Being Polish, can you influance CD PROJEKT RED to add rift support in WITCHER 3 WILD HUNT. i know it mostly going to be 3D VISION READY. it would double the joy if Native Rift Support added.

Yes, I've played both too. Waiting for the third.
However, I don't think that the sole fact that I'm Pole gives me even a little influence on whether they will or will not implement a Rift support That's a big decision.

[Dilip]

However, I don't think that the sole fact that I'm Pole gives me even a little influence on whether they will or will not implement a Rift support That's a big decision.

Partly correct, the other part is 'You never know which small spark will ignite the WILDFIRE'

In your case, the spark has advantage of being native pole

[Alejux]

The Rift will sell to hard core gamers, that's it. Maybe 500K units, with about $100 profit per unit after everything. That's about 50M.

V1 will sell at least 3-4 million copies. Mark my words. They're probably targeting an initial 1 million unit production, expecting to supply most of the demand, but I bet it will run out very soon.

[colocolo]

The Rift will sell to hard core gamers, that's it. Maybe 500K units, with about $100 profit per unit after everything. That's about 50M.

V1 will sell at least 3-4 million copies. Mark my words. They're probably targeting an initial 1 million unit production, expecting to supply most of the demand, but I bet it will run out very soon.

i have marked your words. One should not forget that their internal prototype seems to be pretty badass....and so will at least the consumer version....
High-end PC hardware also isnt that expensive anymore.
AMD published today a new video about Mantle performance.
They underclocked a FX8350 to 2GHz and its still as fast as a i7 4770k for 300$.(alpha-version)
So, if i buy a 120$ FX8320 3.5GHz, a R9 280x(240$).......... i will only need to spend 500bugs onto hardware appropriate for next gen VR.

http://www.golem.de/news/mantle-api-fx- ... 03483.html

[blazespinnaker]

1 million? They're going to have to borrow some money than. The BOM on this thing must be at least $150 bux .. and hard to get good panels cheap for only a 1 million run.

I think they'll do a first production run of at most 100K or so.

[Alejux]

1 million? They're going to have to borrow some money than. The BOM on this thing must be at least $150 bux .. and hard to get good panels cheap for only a 1 million run.

I think they'll do a first production run of at most 100K or so.

That's ridiculous, considering that the developer kit 1, which is high latency, low resolution with no positional tracking and NO CONTENT sold over 40k units. Not to mention that in order to make deals with companies like Samsung , you have to guarantee a very large minimum order. Their first production run will probably be a minimum of 500K units, and they will vanish from stores very quickly. Also, you're assuming that no more money or credit will be given towards the production costs. A lot of companies purchase goods on credit. It's normal practice in many areas.

[colocolo]

100k units for the first month would be more correct.....
i think all our estimates are rather conservatives and we highly underestimate it. There are propably millions of gamers/non-gamers who searched
the web for this kind of stuff like VR and have already found the Rift and are just waiting for it to release(1billion people in Europe/northAmerica/Brasil who read english and are connected to the western internet). Basically Oculus Rift has been promoted for 1 year now passively. And the internet is the promotion platform no1 nowadays for exactly this kind of target group.
Oculus VR will need very capable servers....
like Alejux said they will be sold out very quickly.....i have to hurry then....
Oculus VR comes just to the right time when people have to decide between an Ultra HD TV or a
VR home entertainment system including new PC.

[Alejux]

Oculus VR comes just to the right time when people have to decide between an Ultra HD TV or a
VR home entertainment system including new PC.

...or a SteamBox.

[blazespinnaker]

The first run has to be small because the content simply is not there yet and won't be by the time the rift comes out.

Everything out there is nausea inducing. They need content specifically built for the Rift (and frankly, the Rift-Omni)

I heard the devkit shipped numbers were in the 30s, not the 40s.

[MSat]

The first run has to be small because the content simply is not there yet and won't be by the time the rift comes out.

Everything out there is nausea inducing. They need content specifically built for the Rift (and frankly, the Rift-Omni)

I heard the devkit shipped numbers were in the 30s, not the 40s.

Content isn't really there for Xbox One or PS4 either, but that didn't stop millions of units getting sold within a week.

[STRZ]

No surprise selling at launch for this price, and considering the fellowship they could build up those last 8 years having very little competition, earning the fruits of it now basically. But i doubt that those numbers will persist through the lifetime of those new consoles after the die hard fans got served. I think that VR will completely take over the FP3d genre very quickly once V1 is launched, the best selling genre on consoles. It may happen that new generations of gamers, who are about to start out in the following years don't even consider those next gen consoles anymore. And there are a lot of people in their 30's like myself, who are waiting since 10 years or longer for new experiences in gaming.

All the people need is a flawless lowend to highend out of the box experience, and Oculus with the Android plans on he low end, and Valve with SteamOS on the high end could provide this. The Android integration into the controllerboxis a very smart move, because many who want to start with VR, and can't afford a complete PC setup have something usable right away.

[Dilip]

the web for this kind of stuff like VR and have already found the Rift and are just waiting for it to release(1billion people in Europe/northAmerica/Brasil who read english and are connected to the western internet). Basically Oculus Rift has been promoted for 1 year now passively. And the internet is the promotion platform no1 nowadays for exactly this kind of target group.
Oculus VR will need very capable servers....

High expectations needs superior product to meet with, as people are very senti and harsh judgemental for things which made them LONGING FOR.

Rift has gone through many stages of promote such longing as it really took nice amount of time between KS to DK and DK to CV-1. i know those who have their funds involved will realse nothing but super awesome piece of tech. in light of strong competitors arising...

I believe Oculus VR will need VERY CAPABLE PRODUCT

[Kazioo]

V1 will sell at least 3-4 million copies. Mark my words. They're probably targeting an initial 1 million unit production, expecting to supply most of the demand, but I bet it will run out very soon.

I don't agree. Rifts may sell even more in this decade, but not the V1. I think Oculus plans to use a smart, safe, gradual strategy. They can sell hundreds of thousands of Rifts without any kind of marketing and without retail stores thanks to the impressive word of mouth. Trying to immediately sell a large quantity as a startup would be naive and foolish. Even industry giants like Microsoft and Sony have a lot of problems with handling a launch of a few millions consoles.

Oculus will probably do the market expansion slowly, so there might be Android powered V2 available even before the V1 hits 500K.

As for how the Rift consumer version will launch, that's another question altogether -- he said that there are several camps within Oculus arguing for a retail release vs. direct-to-consumers vs. other options.

direct-to-consumers a possibility = low quantity.

Building a mobile processor into the Rift is a long term project, we don't have any plans to do it for the first consumer product.

V1 won't be able to work as a standalone self-sufficient system = probably not a mainstream product.

[Alejux]

V1 will sell at least 3-4 million copies. Mark my words. They're probably targeting an initial 1 million unit production, expecting to supply most of the demand, but I bet it will run out very soon.

I don't agree. Rifts may sell even more in this decade, but not the V1. I think Oculus plans to use a smart, safe, gradual strategy. They can sell hundreds of thousands of Rifts without any kind of marketing and without retail stores thanks to the impressive word of mouth. Trying to immediately sell a large quantity as a startup would be naive and foolish. Even industry giants like Microsoft and Sony have a lot of problems with handling a launch of a few millions consoles.

Oculus will probably do the market expansion slowly, so there might be Android powered V2 available even before the V1 hits 500K.

I doubt it. I think in pre-sales alone it will have nearly 300k. Wait until the hype starts again when the new prototypes are shown and when people start talking about DK2.

My predictions are not based on Oculus adapting an aggressive commercial stance, with campaigns, publicity , etc... It's purely based on my intuition, seeing the enormous market potential. To me, a VR HMD like the Rift is one of those products people don't know they want (at least the majority) until they try it, and when hundreds of thousands of people start demonstrating it to their friends and relatives, and another flood of media coverage start to appear, it will increase the demand greatly.

Of course, all this will depend on the quality they can produce on CV1, and the existence of some decent content, which I'm confident there will be by the time of release.

But hey... only the future will say for sure.

[colocolo]

It will be the same as with the PC: " You know, they say its the future."
And they will be indeed right.

[blazespinnaker]

Kazioo is right. The 75M is a warchest in case for some reason the Console guys try to beat Oculus down.

The Rift guys are busily writing up their nausea reducing patents and they will strike back with them (and their 75M) at the big guys if they try to do anything in this space.

But they won't be manufacturing millions of rifts .. it just doesn't make sense. The nausea free content is simply not out there and won't be for some time.

You have to understand, the Rift is like a whole new console with its own content / games.

" pre-sales alone it will have nearly 300k" .. this is pure craziness. I don't know anyone that wants a rift that plays video games.

They want to demo it and they find it intriguing but nobody wants to shell out $400+ on it.

It reminds me of the foolishness around the Google Glass. Another non starter for the mass market.

[Alejux]

If the pre-orders was made available today, the numbers would probably be closer to 200k then 100k. Nearly all whole purchased the Dk1 will want the consumer version, and for every enthusiast that bought a DK1, there a many more who are just waiting for the consumer version.

When the new model, with higher resolution, lower latency and positional tracking appears, along with all the new content that is likely to be finished this year for the OR, it's safe to assume the hype will grow much more.

But there's no point in guessing. I look forward to resurrecting this thread a year from now, just so you (Blazespinnaker) can write in bold letters: "I was wrong!"

[blazespinnaker]

The amount of DK rifts is in the high 30K. Big deal. That's 10% on the way to 300K.

You're letting your own enthusiasm for the Rift get the better of you.

Just poll your friends. You'll find none of them are interested beyond trying yours out.

I've been involved in VR for a very long time. We all have. I own a Rift, a Google Glass, and many other gadgets. I am very familiar with the appetite out there for this sort of thing.

I am personally more enthusiastic about the Omni than I am about the Rift, TBH. Getting in shape, getting exercise. Those are cool.

[Alejux]

The amount of DK rifts is in the high 30K. Big deal. That's 10% on the way to 300K.

You're letting your own enthusiasm for the Rift get the better of you.

Just poll your friends. You'll find none of them are interested beyond trying yours out.

I've been involved in VR for a very long time. We all have. I own a Rift, a Google Glass, and many other gadgets. I am very familiar with the appetite out there for this sort of thing.

I am personally more enthusiastic about the Omni than I am about the Rift, TBH. Getting in shape, getting exercise. Those are cool.

As I said. We will see. Feel free to resurrect this thread if I'm wrong.

[colocolo]

One reason why the new consoles sell so well is Youtube.
As PS3 released youtube was very rare, pretty much non existing. News tend to spread very different today.
Youtube is the marketing platform today on which people make advertisment for your product for free. (gameplayvideo.....etc......)
Its the TV of the internet if you will which millions or 4 billions/day watch.
Its not the fanboy in us that lets us estimate so high its the pure reason.

[3trip]

I don't own a rift, but you can bet your house that I, and about 5 of my friends will get in on day one of the commercial rift pre-order!

[colocolo]

Me neither...AAAAAAAAAAAH!!!.....but i am super-ready for pre-order!(i dont want to wait a month more if it sells out)
I never wanted anything in my life so much.

[blazespinnaker]

I have friends that work at major studios. When I bring up the rift, they laugh at me.

The fact is, there is no money in it until millions of people have one, so nobody is going to create content, and ZERO track record - unlike ps/xbox, etc. Content creators can bet on the xbox and the ps because those bets paid off in the past.

Nobody has bet on OVR and won big yet. So why risk it?

It's classic chicken-egg. I'm not saying they can't overcome it, they can, but it will take a looong time.

That all being said, I do love the Rift. I love Palmer. I love OVR. They're all wonderful people. Love love love. But, really folks, we need to accept reality here.

[MSat]

I have friends that work at major studios. When I bring up the rift, they laugh at me.

The fact is, there is no money in it until millions of people have one, so nobody is going to create content, and ZERO track record - unlike ps/xbox, etc. Content creators can bet on the xbox and the ps because those bets paid off in the past.

Nobody has bet on OVR and won big yet. So why risk it?

It's classic chicken-egg. I'm not saying they can't overcome it, they can, but it will take a looong time.

That all being said, I do love the Rift. I love Palmer. I love OVR. They're all wonderful people. Love love love. But, really folks, we need to accept reality here.

Yet some of the biggest studios have at least integrated Rift support in their engines. It might be a long time (if ever) that some of these big game studios create exclusive titles for the Rift, but I don't doubt that ports will become fairly common, and that should be enough to drive sales of millions of units.

[blazespinnaker]

There's a big gap between ports and exclusive titles, and that gap can be described with one word: nausea.

If the CEO says he's solved the problem of nausea, I don't doubt him. He's a very credible guy. But I am pretty sure they have solved it under ideal circumstances, ie: computers with ideal hardware and software which provides all the correct visual queues.

You can do all the magic you want in hardware, but if the software is doing something that doesn't make sense to your brain, it won't matter for a lot of people.

Right now all those titles are being written so they're fun for people without Rifts. Those 100s of millions of people with consoles and pcs versus those 10s of thousands of people who own DK rifts.

QA isn't pushing back and filing bugs on something saying "oh this will make someone with a VR HMD sick"

[blazespinnaker]

I'm actually kind of curious here how many people are actually using the Rift for gameplay.

I do not. When I get an Omni, that will change, because it will make sense. That set up will be providing an experience sitting down in front a monitor can't come even come close to. Right now sitting down and playing FPS etc is a total disconnect between what my body tells me and what my eyes are telling me, no matter how low latency / high res the Rift is.

A part of me wonders if maybe OVR is going to use part of that 75M to compete with Virtuix. Palmer never really endorsed the Omni, remember? They're very excited about reducing nausea (they should be) and if standing up helps than I think they almost have to compete with the Virtuix.

It would be awfully sad if they do that instead of partnering, but frankly not all that surprising. It's a dog eat dog world out there..

Hmmm, I wonder if that's why Jan went on Shark Tank. If so - well played, dude, well played.

[Dilip]

Me neither...AAAAAAAAAAAH!!!.....but i am super-ready for pre-order!(i dont want to wait a month more if it sells out)
I never wanted anything in my life so much.

That's exactly why i said.......
'High expectations needs superior product to meet with, as people are very senti and harsh judgemental for things which made them LONGING FOR.

Rift has gone through many stages of promoting such longing'

Rift Needs good games to support it, they walked past half way by integrating rift support in all major game engines. They can fund few indi developers with great imagination and good skills and can also influance next titles of VALVE even after this to establish they need more...

If all games are not going to be Rift Exlusive or RIFT Native just consider open porting option still there got to be some 'Code of Conduct' which has to be followed, when designing the game by developer if they ever want their game to be ported on rift.

As game which is not from ground designed to be VR Compatible considering everything like...

1) No inhuman reverse run speed
2) No stair climbing (one can use elevators or walking slope instead)
3) No ultra fast movement or inhuman reflexes
4) No cornered UI/HUD
5) No use of 8/9 number micro fonts
6) No use of shortcuts by mixing 2D with 3D (major studios does that, as no one consider even Stereo 3D as widespread medium can't even think of VR then ha ha ha)
7) Real depth assessment .real life like object placement
8) Actual mimicing of human vision FOV of world from average hight, IE 5.5~6 feet.

So they got to convince and kind of EDUCATE and in some aspect INFLUANCE major studios which are going to utilize UNREAL or CRYENGINE to build their next AAA product with safe practises keeping VR PORTING option in mind.

As even VALVE accepted VR Porting is ‘Tricky and tiresome task’
as you have to rethink every thing from scratch and you can’t actually fill up all holes which were left open from beginning of development not considering ever using that product for VR..Most cases end up VR porting as time and effort eating as making new game. Now Valve being Oculus ‘Good Faith Bro’ may do, how can you expect all to do that??

Convincing developers to relegiously follow VR Developer Code itself is TITAN TASK...

Do you know how many NATIVE 3D VISION SUPPORTED GAME ?
Go to NVIDIA.cOM
They are just few...even though its just using safe practises for middleware not developing open stereo game

Consider this task for oculus now...

At least they got to do this much to be successful..Make game Middleware supported if you can't get it native supported for RIFT.