Where S-3D is Headed According to MTBS

Love it or Lump it - post your feedback to individual blog posts on mtbs3D.com
subwoofa
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Post by subwoofa »

Neil wrote:Once people are sold on the concept of 3D, I think they are willing to go through the learning curve to use it. However, we are showing the curve before getting the buy-in, and that's a messaging issue we need to fix.
I understand what you're saying but what I was saying that was that like similar technology websites, I don't think this website would ever be the main vehicle for getting the buy-in, no matter how easy to understand the content is. If that were the case I think a lot of stereo monitor and HMD companies would have already figured it out and put it on their own websites.

Still, if you were going to go that route, I would have more links to the products, retail price, reviews (including links to reviews on other websites) and simple diagrams showing what you need and how easily it hooks up to your computer.

Also, the gallery is a good idea but there is no way for someone who doesn't have S-3D yet to view it! I have seen some of the members' sigs that have that gif that switches back and forth left-eye right-eye a few times per second. Although I haven't seen it yet, some kind of video that swivels from left-eye to right-eye could be even better. Either way, I think if you posted a bunch of images (more than just the "latest") from the galleries that form, it would make the front page more appealing.
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Neil
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Post by Neil »

I understand what you're saying but what I was saying that was that like similar technology websites, I don't think this website would ever be the main vehicle for getting the buy-in, no matter how easy to understand the content is. If that were the case I think a lot of stereo monitor and HMD companies would have already figured it out and put it on their own websites.
The industry hasn't tried a lot of things! :P

In a way, your suggestion of having manufacturers do this on their own site is part of the problem. You can't build leverage that way, there are no commonalities, and there are disadvantages from a credibility point of view if all the positive messages come from the company itself.

Still, if you were going to go that route, I would have more links to the products, retail price, reviews (including links to reviews on other websites) and simple diagrams showing what you need and how easily it hooks up to your computer.
I have to agree with you here. I'm going to be getting something new up on the site hopefully by tomorrow - it's a work in progress. The gallery needs work too, I know!

For anyone reading this, the opinions I expressed in this thread are mine, but if members have a tactful editorial they would like to write, I'm ok with having it printed as an article. You don't have to agree with me, just be tactful.

Regards,
Neil
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chilledsanity
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Post by chilledsanity »

How much is a triple SLI 9800GX2 valued at? How many years will it last you? If a 3D monitor is under $700US and lasts for years, what qualifies as expensive?
Well you talk about how you're trying to open up the crowd away from the "elites", but at prices like that, who but an elite gamer can afford that? When I bought my Elsa Revelator glasses, it was with a TNT2 card as a combined package for about $200. My CRT monitor recently died and I bought a 21" CRT to replace it (with S-3D in mind) for $85 + free shipping. While I like games a lot, I'm a budget gamer and I simply can't afford the price range you're talking about and I may still not be able to for a few years. I might find a way to pony up money if a technology seemed revolutionary, but so far I don't know of one solution that doesn't have its own set of problems. I had a chance to preview the iz3d monitor and I thought the ghosting was significantly more pronounced than on my own CRT. This makes me doubtful of LCD monitors being the end-all solution for S-3D, which you seem to be endorsing by painting Nvidia's move as an overall good thing.
I would argue that previous HMD products in gaming have been less than successful because of low resolution and poor driver support. These issues have and are getting rectified.
And Nvidia is the only driver support many of them have had. So by Nvidia dropping their driver support, it's killing off HMDs (Vuzix hopefully being the exception). How is this a positive thing?
I think you are jumping the gun a bit on the relationship between Zalman and NVIDIA. I don't think this is a partnership - it's a licensing agreement. Very different thing.
Partnership is maybe the wrong word, but this is what's happened:
Before: Nvidia was making S-3D drivers that supported a wide range of stereoscopic hardware.
Now: Nvidia is now making S-3D drivers that work only with Zalman monitors and intentionally exclude all other previous associates.
First, I don't make any money from NVIDIA or Zalman, so there is no cause to question my intentions here.
I never meant to imply that you did. I'm not questioning your intentions at all, I'm questioning the logic behind some of the statements you make regarding this license agreement. I can appreciate that you don't want to piss anybody off since S-3D is a struggling market as it is, but flowery statements about what many of us here consider a bs situation doesn't help either. I'm basically saying you can emphasize the positive without being unrealistic. For instance this statement:
I'm well aware that the new NVIDIA positioning was a painful pill to swallow, but it was a necessary one.
Does anyone else in the forum agree on this? That killing all S-3D driver development except for the Zalman monitor was necessary on Nvidia's part for anything? (including mainstream adoption)
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Neil
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Post by Neil »

Ok, we are just going to go in cycles here. I stand by my statements, and you don't have to agree with them.

If you think your position holds merit, write up a tactful editorial and I'm happy to print it. Can you handle something under a thousand words?

Regards,
Neil
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pixel67
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Post by pixel67 »

chilledsanity wrote:
I'm well aware that the new NVIDIA positioning was a painful pill to swallow, but it was a necessary one.
Does anyone else in the forum agree on this? That killing all S-3D driver development except for the Zalman monitor was necessary on Nvidia's part for anything? (including mainstream adoption)
I am always good for an opinion on this subject. Like a crack addict, I also was not a fan of going cold turkey on S3D driver support. But...and this is a big but...nvidia providing a free driver may have hurt the industry more than helped. If they would have started off with a total solution approach instead of tossing it out to those who like to tinker then we would be having a different discussion right now and it would most likely be, "I wonder when Nvidia will drop the price of their 3d solution". Key word is solution, Kind of like IZ3D is right now. I know the display industry was out in left field at the time and you had to deal with what was available, but there are so many misconceptions of what it is and what it should be due to the free driver approach. Nvidia is finally making a profit on 3D Driver development and it is currently targeted toward a focused solution. Good for them! At the very least means that the technology is still alive and backed by a billion dollar company. Personally, I am REALLY tired of the
"let me tweak this, try that, bend this pin, disable AA, turn off shadows, turn off post processing, only use for thirty minutes cuz it might cause headaches, vertigo, seizures, epilepsy, eyestrain, nausea,
3D experience....

I want to
1. Sit down
2. Turn it on
3. Play in 3D

If there are more steps required than that, then it is back to the drawing board. I have tweaked for YEARS to only get "decent" 3D and you know what? I am sick of tweaking! We are FINALLY getting close to the "Total Solution" experience with IZ3D, Samsung/DDD, Vuzix, and others and it is all due to Nvidia pulling the plug. Soooo.... It is a love/hate relationship at best because we still aren't there yet, but we ARE closer!

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Post by chilledsanity »

Neil: As for an editorial, I might be interested in doing that. While the Nvidia shift is significant, I'd rather like to address broader problems as I see them with the S-3D situation today. I by no means think the situation is hopeless, but I do think it needs help. I'd also like to hear flaws in my reasoning or any possible solutions to various problems as I see them.

As for being objective, I'd say my worst problem perspective-wise is that I enjoy playing older games, so I'm hoping for something resembling a cure-all API-based solution rather than focusing on just the newest ones (even though I realize that'where the money is in this). Really I'm more forgiving of stereo not working with the newest games since they've just come out and driver developers have to play catch-up. But a game that won't in S-3D that came out 5 years ago? That's when I start to get worried, because this should be nothing new and if it doesn't work in a driver release, who's going to care to update it? Even with the problems I've had with Nvidia's drivers, I could at least run any past D3D game and have a very good chance of being able to get SOMETHING to happen.
I want to
1. Sit down
2. Turn it on
3. Play in 3D
This is what everyone wants, but is this any different with Zalman only? I understand they still don't work with post processing, AA is a mixed bag, and you still have to tweak things like shadows, games not supporting them properly etc. I could be wrong here, but is there a substantial difference in the driver quality themselves as opposed to earlier ones from Nvidia?
I am sick of tweaking! We are FINALLY getting close to the "Total Solution" experience with IZ3D, Samsung/DDD, Vuzix, and others and it is all due to Nvidia pulling the plug
IZ3D I've had mixed experiences with. When I used the monitor in a demo store several months back, the ghosting I found to be quite substantial, worse than a CRT and shutterglasses. I've tried their anaglyph drivers recently and it didn't work on most of the games I tried it on (granted my selection is a little more varied). Additionally, There's no DX 6 or 7 support, which means older games are flat out dead for S-3D, something I care about. I think iz3d has a great deal of potential, but so far I feel like it's still kind of in infancy.

Samsung/DDD I don't know anything about I'm afraid. Vuzix has been developing their drivers on a per-game basis, also with no DX 6 or 7 support. Per-game doesn't sound like the future, it sounds like they'll have to make a really big jump in order for S-3D driver support to progress past a half-baked solution. I WILL say that Nvidia may be doing a service pulling the plug since even theirs I have issues with. In MANY fps's on Nvidia's drivers, in order to get what I consider "good" depth, I have to push the HUD and gun so far off the screen that it makes the game impractical to play. This wasn't the case with the old Elsa Revelator drivers nor does it seem to be with iz3d's.
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pixel67
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Post by pixel67 »

IZ3D is hard at work correcting some of the ghosting issues (new glasses, algorithm changes mentioned in other threads). I agree it isn't perfect, but at least they are clearly focused on the end user experience. Considering the fact that they currently support post processing, antialiasing, and have announced future SLI support and support for non IZ3D Display solutions, I think they have the best thing going right now. Otherwise they wouldn't care whether there is ghosting or not. I really can't speak much about the Nvidia/Zalman solution as there isn't a whole lot of feedback on it yet. My personal experiences with DDD/Samsung are also a little mixed. I really love my Sammy but I am not a big fan of DDD's drivers at the moment (compatibility and pricing model are the current challenges) but at least they too are trying to focus more on the end user experience by targeting their development. I have had consistent results using the IZ3D Drivers in anaglyph mode and am really looking forward to them possibly support DLP3D in the future. I would trade out the DDD drivers in a heartbeat!
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Post by chilledsanity »

Cool, once I get more time (and make some space) I'm going to give the iz3d anaglyph drivers a full pit test and sic them on as many games as I can (I'll post the results once I do). Really I don't like anaglyph, but it will be fine for experimenting to see how they do. Also I think with iz3d's reputation so far, a page flipping mode isn't out of sight and they already support dual output.
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Post by pixel67 »

Yeah, i am not a fan of anaglyph either and was just testing compatibility. They work with nearly every game i own! One thing i can say is that they are FAST compared to the DDD drivers although i am really not comparing apples to apples due to the different formats.
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Post by Tril »

What do you mean when you say FAST? Are you talking about the driver or the company?

I don't know if you want to say that iZ3D adds support for games faster than DDD or if you wan to say that the fps are higher with the iZ3D driver.
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Post by pixel67 »

Both are true. DDD Driver performance pales in comparison to what IZ3D's achieve but this is comparing anaglyph to DLP3D Checkerboard formats. I would love to do a direct comparison when IZ3D looks at supporting DLP3D. There is NO comparison at all when looking at supported games. IZ3D wins hands down. 1 game every 1-2 months from DDD isn't enough to even keep up with the market.
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Post by chilledsanity »

Yeah, i am not a fan of anaglyph either and was just testing compatibility. They work with nearly every game i own!
Well sadly I can't say the same. You can read the review I made on it here:

link

I had more games I planned to test on it, but once I discovered the convergence issue, it discouraged me from doing more testing.
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Neil
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Post by Neil »

Can you post some comparative screen shots in the gallery?

Try Oblivion or something a lot of us own.

Regards,
Neil
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chilledsanity
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Post by chilledsanity »

Sounds good, I won't get to it immediately, but I'll try and make a comparison screenshot in Oblivion compared to Nvidia's.
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