Video Editor Looking for 3D Solution

[asaliga]

Hello everyone. These forums are great and have been very useful in finding most of the info I need. I would, however, like to get some opinions from you as most of you seem to be well versed in 3D.

I work at a post production house and we are creating some 3D content for a client. All work is literally 3D models, so when this is approved the video will be rendered with two different camera views to created the stereoscopic content. Where I'd like some input is on different 3D systems for content distribution.

Initially, I need to put together a complete 3D system that is somewhat mobile. The client needs to be able to setup and run it easily. This unit will be for small to medium sized presentations. There will be another setup (could be the same one) that will be for in-store displays. Because of this, the client has chosen to go with polarized 3D tech. Putting active shutter glasses in stores nation wide isn't cost effective.

The setup I proposed to them was a Zalman monitor and a PC. From what I can tell the ZM-M220W is being phased out in favor of the new M215W. The problem is that it's so new, I can only find it from UK stores and I've read about NVIDIA drivers not supporting it yet.

I'd love to go with a BR3D player and a 3D HDTV, but none of the major video encoding companies have include the MVC codec to encode this content. I know the spec was finalized in December '09, but I can't find too many details. Blu-ray would be much simpler, from a usability standpoint, but wouldn't that lock me into active shutter?

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks,

-Andrew

[asaliga]

One more thing I'd like to ask is, if the Zalman driver/software is capable of outputting the same video to 2 Zalman monitors? I've sent an email to their tech support, but haven't heard back.


-Andrew

[BlackShark]

Hi

Zalman monitors is the cheapest and easiest route. Unfortunately these displays are not designed for presentations. The very narrow vertical viewing angle and the angular correction will cause problems. This 3D display is designed for people sitting at a desk using a computer, my opinion is that using such a display for wide public presentations is a mistake. It may cause more harm than good.

The nvidia shutter based solution with one or two pairs of glasses per display would be more suitable and not that much more expensive. Unless you want to provide more glasses, then a big 3DTV would be more suitable than a small 21/22" display.
If you really want to go polarized with a small screen in public, then the iZ3D monitor is probably your best bet.

If you want to go big with a 3DTV and BluRay players, then it is possible, even with standard 2D BluRay players, DVD discs and with traditional "2D" H264/mpeg4 compression.
I do not know the details about authoring BluRay discs or DVDs with BluRay structure, I've read the Videlan team managed to complete the free open source encoding tools to create BluRay (2D) compliant files, you know probably more about it than me : the idea is that if you can display a 2D picture, then there is a way to create stereoscopic 3D video files that will work on 3DTVs.

The trick is to record the pictures side by side, squeezed inside a single 1080p frame (each eye sees a frame with 1/2 horizontal resolution).
On the 3DTV, you have to enable 3D manually in the TV menus and force the 3D format manually to use side by side 3D input format (because you do not use the hdmi1.4 auto-detection feature). Probably not all 3DTVs will have the possibility to force 3D inputs manually but I know for sure from user reviews that the new Samsung TVs do have it and works perfectly with this technique.

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For stereo video format and display technology. Stereo video files are always display independant.
On current 3D monitors, the displays only support their input own format : it's up to the video playback software to convert the pictures to the display format on the fly.
On new 3DTVs, there are a couple of standard input formats that the TVs must support and be able to convert on the fly to their internal required format.

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Video output cloning works with Zalman displays or 3DTVs with the side by side method, but it is not yet available for nvidia 3D vision displays but nvidia is working on it at the moment for it's 3x monitor 3D-surround system technology.
iZ3D displays are more complicated since they require 2 video cables per display, i don't think they can be cloned by the graphics card. However it is compatible with external hardware video cloning devices.

[asaliga]

Thanks for for the thorough response Black Shark.

A narrow viewing angle is not good in this scenario, as the meetings will have 15-20 people.

We sold the client on using polarized 3D early on based on it's simplicity and inexpensiveness. We discussed every option, even projection systems, but we settled on polarized. At this point it's whatever needs to be done to pull this off in two weeks.

We had looked into the iZ3D, but I read a few reviews that were very poor. They may be things that may not matter as much to an average user, but issues with gamma, color shifts, and ghosting are deal breakers for this project. To give a bit more info, this piece is for a company's product. It's modeled in 3D, very stylized and has lots of detail, text that points out key features, etc. So you would recommend iZ3D over the Zalman. One thing to add is that I was also drawn to the Zalman because of it's built in speakers, as this project has a music track.

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Interesting about the BR. I know you can author a Blu-ray compliant disc on a standard red laser DVD. It's actually written into the BR spec. One of my co-workers has a 3D TV at home, so I should do some tests with the BR route. It's a Mitsubishi, so I don't know if it'll work.

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That answers my question about playback if you're using a computer monitor. I'm planning on using the Stereoscopic Player by 3dtv.at.

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So if I'm running Stereoscopic Player from a PC going out to a HDTV how would my setup look? Would I use a DVI-HDMI converter? I assume that if I want to add another TV I'll need to outputs from the video card and could not do this by looping the TVs as I've never seen an HDMI out on a TV.

[asaliga]

I did a bit more reading. According to EngadgetHD, the Bllu-ray spec is frame-sequential, not side-by-side 3D. I also found out that Panasonic has a 3D Blu-ray encoding center, but obviously this is Hollywood access only.

I can't find anything about the MVC codec. I would be curious to try altering the frames somehow in AE or FCP and encoding that with standard Blu-ray encoding. My assumption is that the encoder isn't much different. The main question is how to alternate the frames. I don't know if this would be a function of the encoder combining the frames or something that would be done before encoding. It would make more sense for this to be a function of the encoder from an efficiency standpoint.

[cybereality]

I have a Zalman Trimon and I do like it but it is not made for presentations. Even with just 2 people its difficult to accommodate both viewers. The issue is the viewing angle is very narrow (vertically). You have to be pretty much as the exact angle to get a nice image. If you move from that position, even a few inches, you get seriously bad ghosting. Move any further and the views swap. While this is somewhat acceptable for one person, its completely unusable for a crowd of people.

Using an HDTV may be a better option. I know the new Samsung 2010 line supports legacy formats such as side-by-side. So you could conceivably burn a regular Blu-Ray (or have an PC pumping 1080P video) in side-by-side format and then manually set the HDTV to that mode and it should work. Obviously this would be using the Samsung shutter glasses which are $150 a pop. So this is not the cheapest solution, but its an option.

If you can live with something smaller than the Nvidia 3D Vision is one option or, on the cheaper side, the iz3D monitor. The advantage of the iz3d monitor is that its polarized so the glasses are cheap for a large number of people but I hear there is ghosting and other quality issues with that solution.

In terms of authoring a 3D Blu-Ray I'm pretty sure you would need to encode it with MVC. I don't know of any way to hack it otherwise. The MVC codec is an over/under style format with some pixels of padding so the full frame is 1920 x 2190 or something like that. Engadget knows jack-dittley about 3D, don't trust anything you read there. If you want to go the MVC route I think you will need to wait for better tooling to become available.

[BlackShark]

We sold the client on using polarized 3D early on based on it's simplicity and inexpensiveness. We discussed every option, even projection systems, but we settled on polarized. At this point it's whatever needs to be done to pull this off in two weeks.

We had looked into the iZ3D, but I read a few reviews that were very poor. They may be things that may not matter as much to an average user, but issues with gamma, color shifts, and ghosting are deal breakers for this project. To give a bit more info, this piece is for a company's product. It's modeled in 3D, very stylized and has lots of detail, text that points out key features, etc. So you would recommend iZ3D over the Zalman. One thing to add is that I was also drawn to the Zalman because of it's built in speakers, as this project has a music track.

---------------------------------------

Interesting about the BR. I know you can author a Blu-ray compliant disc on a standard red laser DVD. It's actually written into the BR spec. One of my co-workers has a 3D TV at home, so I should do some tests with the BR route. It's a Mitsubishi, so I don't know if it'll work.

So if I'm running Stereoscopic Player from a PC going out to a HDTV how would my setup look? Would I use a DVI-HDMI converter? I assume that if I want to add another TV I'll need to outputs from the video card and could not do this by looping the TVs as I've never seen an HDMI out on a TV.

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I did a bit more reading. According to EngadgetHD, the Bllu-ray spec is frame-sequential, not side-by-side 3D. I also found out that Panasonic has a 3D Blu-ray encoding center, but obviously this is Hollywood access only.

I can't find anything about the MVC codec. I would be curious to try altering the frames somehow in AE or FCP and encoding that with standard Blu-ray encoding. My assumption is that the encoder isn't much different. The main question is how to alternate the frames. I don't know if this would be a function of the encoder combining the frames or something that would be done before encoding. It would make more sense for this to be a function of the encoder from an efficiency standpoint.

Before we start : forget about the speakers built in small displays, they're all bad. Just get a small <50€ set of logitech 2.0 speakers and you'll get significantly better results than with the tiny built-in speakers of computer displays.
You're using sound to sell your product and are using cutting edge 3D displays so don't put crappy sound next to it : it would kill the magic.

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Polarized glasses are inexpensive, but polarized displays cost more. Moreover, the only polarized displays that are mass produced are Zalman and iZ3D, all the others are only built in small quantities which make their prices sky-rocket.
If you want to stay with cheap products, then the iZ3D is the only available solution at the moment for your usage. It won't be the best quality but at least it will work.

If you want to use bigger polarized 3DTVs, at the moment your only solutions are the 46" JVC and Hyundai monitors (which are very very expensive). they use the same technology as Zalman but since the pixels are much bigger, the view vertical view angles are bigger. I've been able to see a Hyundai 46" monitor and it looks gorgeous, there is no ghosting issues as long as you place the TV at viewer's height : if you have a couch, use at couch height, if you don't, use at standing head height, but these displays do not fit both configurations at the same time.
LG is expected to come up with a similar display (just one) that will hopefully be cheaper but i do not know the release date.

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You can use the Mitsubishi 3DTV with shutter glasses no problem as long as you use a computer for playback and you'll get a fantastic picture (the only problem may be the weight of the display for transportation). It may work with a hardware player but you may have to modify the picture format to match one of the displays input formats, it may be a long and painful process to find the exact configuration.
These rear projection DLP TVs require a unique input format called the "checkerboard". Some also have support for line interleaved format but it may get tricky to use. With computers, Peter Wimmer's Stereoscopic Player (3dtv.at) supports the checkerboard native transmission format so you'll be able to play videos very easily and reliably.

There are some particularities to use these TVs, I think most of them require you to use a specific hdmi port at the back of the TVs and you have to use precisely the right image resolution, I don't know for each model so if you can, have a look at the user manual to see if you can find more details on the cable configuration for this TV.
On the computer configuration, take a close look at the advanced display properties in your graphics card driver : the checkerboard transmission format does not tolerate any scaling, so triple-check all the scaling, under/over-scan features and so on.
If your computer has an HDMI out, then you will be able to plug directly the display to the computer with an hdmi cable. If you don't have one, then you'll need a cheap DVI to hdmi adaptor, of even more simple a cable with DVI at one end and hdmi at the other hand, and then you'll need a separate cable for audio.


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The BluRay3D format is neither frame sequential or side by side. When it comes to 3D you cannot trust EngagdetHD, they just do not invest enough time to understand the tech, they just repeat what they heard somewhere even if it's incorrect.
Many people associate BluRay3D with the hdmi1.4 transmission formats and mix all that up with 3DTVs that all use shutter technology, and what you get at the end is a bunch of totally incorrect statements that have nothing to do with what is actually happening.

The BluRay Disc Association keeps repeating that the BluRay3D spec is display format agnostic. The BluRay3D disc provides the two left and right eye views separately in a unique and standard format and then it's up to the BluRay player manufacturer and programmers to manipulate the left and right eye pictures to support whatever display or transmission format they want to support.

MPEG4 MVC is currently not usable. The only software capable to decode it currently only support hdmi1.4 transmission format (the new HDTVs) and encoding to MVC is buggy (there are compatibility issues between players with the first batches of BD3D titles), and encoding software is inaccessible.
MVC encodes the first eye view as a standard H264/AVC stream, and the second eye view with a special stream that defines the pictures with differences between the left and right eye views. After decoding you get two separate pictures that you have to combine or transform in order to be able to transmit them to the 3D display.

At the moment, the best way to get your pictures to be displayed is to stick to side by side in a standard 2D video stream and manually activate the 3D mode (either in stereoscopic player, or in the TV 3D format override menus)

[cybereality]

Yeah Blackshark is right. I was confusing MVC and HDMI 1.4 (which are usually used together). MVC stores video as two 1080P streams (or rather 2D+delta). Its the 3D Blu-Ray player that converts this to the over/under HDMI 1.4 format I was talking about for the TV to then process into a frame-sequential format. No wonder people are confused.

[asaliga]

Thanks for all the info cyberreality and BlackShark. It's a lot to absorb, but very useful.
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I was worried about those speakers. I'll save myself the trouble and get some to add to the system.
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It looks like the Blu-ray route is totally out of the question for now. I even contacted a compressionist/author I follow on Twitter and he shared the same thoughts. BR3D is just too new.
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I think I had mentioned that the iZ3D was the first solution we considered. Is the viewing angle any better? I also see that it's only a 22" screen.
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It's looking like I'll go back to the client and tell them that active shutter is the better way to go for the time being.

What are your thoughts on NVIDIAs active shutter solutions. I noticed they have a few turnkey solutions ( http://www.nvidia.com/object/buy_now_re ... 3DVISIONPC) on their site that include all the necessary components. The only thing is that the included display is 22". I'm I right to assume that any HDTV that has at least a 120Hz refresh rate would work in this scenario if using a DVI to HDMI cable?
____________________________________________________________

Good to know Engadget isn't the most technical. Thanks for clearing up the BR3D spec.

-Andrew

[BlackShark]

The iZ3D monitor does not have super-wide viewing angles : (it's a TN based LCD display and adds polarisation on top of it).
But it's wide enough to be useable in a multi-user environment.
iZ3D currently only has the 22" model. A bigger (27") model is in the works but it won't be ready until the end of the year, and that is no definitive ETA, it may come even later.

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Nvidia 3D vision is a turnkey solution. It is not based on open standards, even though the nvidia FAQ illustrations seems to make believe you can use any 120Hz display, nothing is further from the truth : there are very strict hardware and software requirements that rule out 99% of the 120Hz displays on the market.
If you want to use 3D vision, you must use hardware listed in the official nvidia 3D vision hardware requirements.

Also, keep in mind that nvidia 3D vision is a closed system. All displays must be approved by nvidia, registered in the nvidia drivers and detected by the software to work.

[asaliga]

So BlackShark, you think the iZ3D would work well for presenting a 60 second product demo (essentially what it is) to a group of 20+?

I don't mind the NVIDIA solution being closed as much, but it looks like a hassle trying to get it to work with a TV.

If I'm locked into the 22"ish monitor size with either an NVIDIA or iZ3D solution, I'm assuming you would choose the iZ3D since it's not closed?

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I'm thinking about this pseudo 3D BR you mentioned. That is sounding very feasible. I checked out a 3D setup at a local store and they were using a Samsung. I was the Samsung UN55C7000 (I think), which I believe is the one you are talking about. This is an active shutter-based system, but the guy at the store told me that it would work with polarized glasses. Please tell me he is a bit developmentally challenged with this assertion.

[asaliga]

Sorry, one more thought. Would it be a standard BR player and 3DTV in this setup? In my mind if it's a 1080 frame going out and a "pseudo 3D BR" disc then a standard player would work. Actually, I take that back. I guess if the shutter sync emitter is in the player it's a necessary piece. But if polarized would work by some miracle then my assumption is that a standard BR player would work.

[cybereality]

Those Samsung sets only use active shutter glasses (the Samsung ones) and in no way work with polarized glasses.

[asaliga]

Typical large electronics store employee I guess.

CyberReality, would you go for the iZ3D for a presentation over NVIDIA's system? Is it's viewing angle much better than the Zalman?

[asaliga]

I'm still open to opinions on those two monitors, but we are no considering passive polarized with a projector. It was our first thought, so, go figure.

CyberReality,
I've found a few month old thread where you talk about projector tech. Heard anything about Cyviz? I didn't seen anything on the forums. They have complete setups, even mobile ones. They have an impressive client list as well.
http://www.cyviz.com/cyviz/public/openI ... CLE_ID=110

[BlackShark]

Dual projectors will certainly provide the best picture, it's still the king of the 3D display.
However it is longer to setup (it can still be quick if well prepared and you are trained to set it up).

Dual projectors is usually a DIY process to keep the prices as low as possible (you can easily expect a 3000-3500$ budget for a dual 1080p projector + rollable/deployable screen + filters + a bunch of glasses).
I've already seen a few websites about companies selling packages all included, but I don't know their prices. I guess since the prices are not shown, I'm expecting these solutions to be very expensive. (much more than what you could get if you bought the parts individually).

[asaliga]

Ease of setup is what I'm concerned about. In the end, it'll be our client who is setting this up for their presentations. A higher price is fine, as long it's the most efficient way of delivering a 3D product to the client. What's interesting about the Cyviz is that the two projectors are mounted in an aluminum frame complete with carrying handle and everything. They say that it can be set up in minutes by anyone - whether that's true or night I don't know. They must be doing something right though to have such large clients.

Do you know anyone on the forums who is technical on the video end of stereoscopic 3D? I did some tests with a C7000 and a 2D BR disc. I put both left and right camera views in a 1080frame and encoded it for BR. I tried to force the TV to see it as side-by-side 3D, but it would auto revert back to 2D mode as soon as I exited the menus. I thought I had heard this "forced 3D" was possible with this model?

[BlackShark]

I don't have the TV but maybe there is an other 3D option that overrides the manual 3D setting you are trying to force.

[asaliga]

Finally found some info on Blu-ray encoding/authoring. NetBlender will have an encoder available in June 2010 for $7K. If you want to author 3D menus for the 3D BR disc the solution is Sony Blu-print. Blu-print is a Windows only solution that is $50K +10K annual support contract. Sonic Scenarist will have support coming soon as well, but I can't find a date, but setups are $5K to $35K.

Scenarist is a Hollywood studio grade system, that is far beyond Sonic's other authoring solutions as well as alternatives like Adobe Encore, DVD Studio Pro, etc..

OFFHOLLYWOOD Summary of this Info
http://www.offhollywoodny.com/blog/2010 ... discs.html

NetBlender MVC Encoder
http://www.netblender.com/main/products ... d-encoder/

Sonic Scenarist
http://www.sonic.com/products/Professio ... klook.aspx

Sony Blu-Print

Code: Select all

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/bluprint

[asaliga]

Plan C.

Foresee any issues with this setup?

Asus EeeePC with HDMI out, video played via StereoScopic Player, viewed on Mitsubishi WD-60737 60" DLP HDTV. 3D via TriDef Active Shutter System.


Asus Eee PC
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6883220014

StereoScopic Player
http://www.3dtv.at/Products/Player/Index_en.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mitsubishi TV
http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-607 ... b_title_ce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TriDef Active Shutter Glasses + Emitter
http://razor3d.stores.yahoo.net/dlp3d-w ... -2set.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BlackShark]

Should work. Just one unknown : does the eeepc have enough power to decode your HD stereo video in real time ?
I'm not sure.
It may work but I'd recommend a core2duo laptop with a low-end nvidia or ATI GPU (not intel GPU) as a minimum just to be sure.

[asaliga]

Yeah, that'd be my only concern as well.

My coworker has essentially the same setup, and he's running 1080p video from a 3 year old MacBook. He thinks it's a 1.5GHz processor. From the reviews I've read, HD works well as long as not trying to decode a Flash HD stream. I'll be encoding an H.264 of this 60 second piece, and can whatever bitrate adjustments I need to.

[BlackShark]

if the computer can't decode H.264, you can still try with DivX and jack up the bitrate to get the equivalent quality.

[cybereality]

That computer might be a little low-end to decode dual 1080P video streams. It could probably just barely handle a single HD stream. Maybe it might work, but it would be pushing it.

[asaliga]

I looked into it a bit more and recalled that I've seen Apple post H.264 decoding requirements.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd ... tions.html

I also was unaware of this other Eee PC, which ups it from a 1.6GHz processor to a dual-core 1.6GHz. It still has an included HDMI out, and is meant for 1080 video content.
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Eee-Box-EB15 ... 002VKBKD8

[asaliga]

Thanks for all your help guys. The presentation of this piece went extremely well for the big meeting. Everyone viewing was impressed, including the CEO of the company.

The solution we went with was the passive 3D solution that Acer and TriDef put together. I'm not a fan of Acer hardware, but it was convenient in this scenario. Even though this laptop had 3D capabilities, it was primarily used for sending the video to a Mitsubishi 3D TV. It was nice to have the portable option as well if needed. We ran Stereoscopic Player on the laptop, and went to the TV via the HDMI. The TV allowed for a larger viewing angle and was able to accommodate the 100 people at the meeting.

I encoded two 720p files (left and right) and selected them as the input sources in the player. I encoded QuickTime H.264s at 5Mbps and playback was seamless.

Thanks again.

I'll let you know when I successfully output a 3D BR.

[BlackShark]

Good to hear your presentation worked well.

For a future presentation with this system, you should know that any laptop with an hdmi connector will work with the mitsubishi TV, if you ever wanted to change the hardware, you can.

[asaliga]

Right. Having the option to go portable if needed is convenient though.

Thanks again.

[asaliga]

Hey guys. Just wanted to put in a quick update since you help me find a 3D solution. The video we produced has been complete for several months, but is just now public. If you're interesting in viewing it (in 2D) here is a link. http://vimeo.com/12206262

Thanks again.

--
-Andrew Saliga
I/O Specialist/Assistant Editor
Steelehouse Productions

[cybereality]

Very nice.

[asaliga]

Thanks.

[BlackShark]

This looks like cool shoes. I didn't know there were so many parts in sports shoes.

[asaliga]

Yeah. It was interesting for our guys to model. New Balance sent us the whole shoe as well as all the individual pieces. Different pieces are noticeable different materials too. I guess it makes sense if you think about it, it's just that I've never stopped to think about it.

--
-Andrew Saliga
I/O Specialist/Assistant Editor
Steelehouse Productions