Sony Showing Off New 3D Display At SMPTE09

[cybereality]

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/07/sony- ... t-smpte09/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martinlandau]

Yes, it is all becoming so mainstream now, everyone better start selling all thier monoscope stuff, tvs, laptops, etc etc. Who will want them anymore but the people with 1 eyeball?

[koshien]

This is great news! From its size, It looks like it might be full-hd per eye, just like the iz3d monitor... and compatible with cheap reald glasses...and with the Sony quality... if true, and not too expensive, must buy!
Too bad it seems like hdmi 1.4 devices will be on the market only next year (http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/22/3d-a ... ced-still/)... I thought the slim ps3 was going to come out with built-in hdmi 1.4 compatibility
Have exam in a few hours, wish me luck

[DmitryKo]

Too bad it seems like hdmi 1.4 devices will be on the market only next year (http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/22/3d-a ... ced-still/)... I thought the slim ps3 was going to come out with built-in hdmi 1.4 compatibility

I'm sorry to tell, but HDMI 1.4 is a complete joke in regard to 3D gaming. Single-link HDMI 1.3/1.4 still do not have enough bandwidth for transmitting full quality 1080p at 120 frames per second, so 3D televisions must employ either some spatial "compression" like line interleaving (which is the method employed by these prototype passive-glasses LCD TVs from Sony) or checkerboard pattern (designed by TI for use in Mitsubishi and Samsung DLPs, Samsung plasmas etc.), or maybe color space compression like YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:2:0, to be able to receive these 60 frames per each eye required for comfortable stereo gaming.

[BlackShark]

What is 3D on a big consumer TV ?

answer : 3D Blu-Ray @ 24fps 4:2:0, 3D HDTV @ 1080i/720p and 3D Playstation3 @ 2x30fps 4:2:0 /maybe 4:4:4 (seriously : most 2D fullHD game developers on consoles stick to 30 and a few struggle to reach 60 how can this console possibly generate 120fps at full res ? )

Moreover, not all TVs support 4:4:4 over hdmi, some of them only handle 4:2:0 and people don't seem really upset about it since both Blu-Ray and HDTV is subsampled.
The day consoles will generate stereo @ fullHD and 60fps and 4:4:4, we'll have an other console generation gone by.
And for retro-compatibility you'll have a very nice 4:2:0 backward compatibility... how nice is that ?

4:4:4/RGB is an other of these PC only oddities that never really happened in the "consumer-living-room" area.... except maybe the super NES via SCART-RGB.

[DmitryKo]

What is 3D on a big consumer TV ? answer : 3D Blu-Ray @ 24fps 4:2:0, 3D HDTV @ 1080i/720p and 3D Playstation3 @ 2x30fps 4:2:0 /maybe 4:4:4
Moreover, not all TVs support 4:4:4 over hdmi, some of them only handle 4:2:0 and people don't seem really upset about it since both Blu-Ray and HDTV is subsampled.
4:4:4/RGB is an other of these PC only oddities that never really happened in the "consumer-living-room" area.... except maybe the super NES via SCART-RGB.

You're basically assuming that some TVs would not accept RGB signal from a PC connected with a DVI-HDMI cable. AFAIK, this is not correct.

Yes, YCbCr color space with 4:2:0 subsampling is an integral part of most video compression formats like MPEG-2, MPEG-4 and MPEG-4 AVC, and many TVs feature analog YPbPr inputs. However, YCbCr color space and chroma subsampling is an optional feature in the HDMI specs, while support for RGB 4:4:4 (8 bit per component) signal in sRGB color space is mandatory and is required for DVI compatibility. Likewise, things like extended color depth, additional color spaces, expanded bandwidth, consumer electronics control are all optional.

The day consoles will generate stereo @ fullHD and 60fps and 4:4:4, we'll have an other console generation gone by.
And for retro-compatibility you'll have a very nice 4:2:0 backward compatibility... how nice is that ?
most 2D fullHD game developers on consoles stick to 30 and a few struggle to reach 60 how can this console possibly generate 120fps at full res ? )

Even if developers are "capping" frame rates to a certain target by decreasing the rendering resolution and simplifying some effects, it does not mean the display link is "capped" to that frame rate. Whether the game renders 1 frame per second or 500 frames per second, the HDMI video link still sends 60 full frames per second to the display. Both Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 "generate" (i.e. render) a 32 bit RGB picture to the framebuffer, and both "generate" (i.e. up-scale to) 1080p60 on their HDMI output, I suppose in a RGB 4:4:4 format.

[ssiu]

I'm sorry to tell, but HDMI 1.4 is a complete joke in regard to 3D gaming. Single-link HDMI 1.3/1.4 still do not have enough bandwidth for transmitting full quality 1080p at 120 frames per second, so 3D televisions must employ either some spatial "compression" like line interleaving (which is the method employed by these prototype passive-glasses LCD TVs from Sony) or checkerboard pattern (designed by TI for use in Mitsubishi and Samsung DLPs, Samsung plasmas etc.), or maybe color space compression like YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:2:0, to be able to receive these 60 frames per each eye required for comfortable stereo gaming.

I am hopeful that it uses Reduced Blanking instead of color space compression to fit into available bandwidth.

It supports 3840×2160p at 30Hz, which needs the same amount of bandwidth as 1920x1080p at 120Hz.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1 ... 4_faq.aspx

[DmitryKo]

I am hopeful that it uses Reduced Blanking instead of color space compression to fit into available bandwidth.

Well, many if not all 1080p50/p60 televisions do specify CVT Reduced Blanking timings in this mode. This is not a CEA-supported mode however, and CVT-RB is not specified for 120 Hz. That's probably one of the reasons why iZ3D implemented dual-DVI and not dual-link DVI in their monitor...

Stereoscopic devices could probalby use the much-forgotten dual-link HDMI connector to overcome the bandwitdth limitations, but the chances are quite slim, as dual-link devices or cables are non-existant... More than that, the pin count nearly doubles comparing to single-link HDMI, so the costs for cabling would double as well... and you thought $50 for a HDMI cable was a bit overkill! DisplayPort suddenly starts to make sense, does it?

It supports 3840×2160p at 30Hz, which needs the same amount of bandwidth as 1920x1080p at 120Hz.

Unfortunately, things are a bit more complicated. This is a border case where 2160p30 barely escapes the maximum bandwidth limit, but 1080p120 clearly exceeds the limit (using 24-bit RGB coding and standard CVT timings).


I think I'd sum it up once more.

Here are the maximum data rates available for DVI, HDMI and DisplayPort:

Code: Select all

DVI single/dual link		 3.96, 7.92 GBit/s	 	  	(up to 165 MHz pixel clock)
HDMI single link 1.2/1.3	3.96, 8.16 Gbit/s	 	  	(up to 165 or 340 MHz pixel clock)
DisplayPort 1.1/1.2 		 5.184, 8.64, 17.2 Gbit/s	  (1.62, 2.7 or 5.4 GHz symbol rate per lane)

Please note that the often-quoted 10.2 GBit/s figure for HDMI is the symbol rate - the effective data rate is 20% lower because of error-correction overhead (8B/10B encoding scheme is employed by all of the above standards).


Sample bandwidth required for some common resolutions, color depths, refresh rates and standard blanking methods such as Generalized Timing Formula and Coordinated Video Timing with Reduced Blanking (calculatied with standard VESA spreadsheets from http://vesa.org/Standards/free.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), in Gigabit/s:

Superceded, see Common stereoscopic video resolutions and bandwidth

Code: Select all

	 	   		  CVT	   CVT-RB	  CEA-861 
    30 Hz 24 bpp	
1920	1080		 1.92	 1.64	 1.78	 	 
3840	2160		 8.14	 6.31	 7.13

    30 Hz 30 bpp																
1920	1080		 2.40	 2.05	
3840	2160		10.17	 7.89

    60 Hz 24 bpp						
1920	1080		 4.15	 3.33	 3.56
1920	1200		 4.65	 3.70	 
2560	1600		 8.37	 6.45
3840	2160		17.11	12.80
    60Hz 30 bpp						
1920	1080		 5.19	 4.16	 4.46
1920	1200		 5.81	 4.62
2560	1600		10.46	 8.06
3840	2160		21.39	16.00
    
    120Hz 24 bpp						
1920	1080		 8.87	 6.85	 7.13
1920	1200		 9.86	 7.61
2560	1600		17.64	13.43
    120Hz 30 bpp						
1920	1080		11.09	 8.57
1920	1200		12.32	 9.52
2560	1600		22.05	16.79

Note. CVT Reduced Blanking is defined for some standard video modes including 120 Hz; and similar 100 and 120 Hz modes are now defined in CEA-861-E, but unfortunately I do not have access to this standard.

See also:
DisplayPort 1.2 takes stereo 3D into consideration

[Edit] removed 120 Hz 18 bit modes, since Direct Drive Monitor spec does not allow this.
[Edit2] removed no blank, GTF and some modes as irrelevant
[Edit3] 120 Hz is allowed with reduced blanking

[BlackShark]

I have read reports of home theatre PC users reporting their TVs would not accept the hdmi signal from the PC hdmi output unless they activate subsampling.
I do not know how much of that happens with what hardware but i heard it happens sometimes.