20/20 Foresight - The 3D Glasses Myth

[Neil]

Do you agree with Chris Satchell, General Manager of XNA that the need for 3D glasses is holding S-3D back? Did he throw the baby out with the bathwater? Post your thoughts on this editorial HERE.

Regards,
Neil

[crim3]

You can be sure of that when you read comments about the aesthetics of the glasses in every single review about the topic. Worst, in the comments of the reviews.
I don't need to feel cool with a screwdriver nor I complain about the need of one to unscrew a screw. I'm happy that the tool exists to be able to do it.
It's the same thing with shutter glasses or HMDs, they are tools that I'm happy to use because I want stereo-3D.
But general public sees it different. Stereo-3D is just a curiosity that is completely useless but could be cool to try for while till the "fashion" passes by. With this mentality you don't want any extra thing on your face. It isn't a negative point of view, is just a different point of view.

[artox]

Well generally the need of buying a peripheral has a negative effect. We can ask ourselves why doesn't everyone use a wheel or gamepad or joystick when playing games. Not because it isn't better than using a keyboard ( of course excluding games that aren't made for kb+mouse like fps, quests or strategies) rather because you have to buy a peripheral that you aren't even going to use in all of your games. With the glasses it is not that different if we speak of shutters (not passive) - you can spend money but you can't even play all your games with them (because of drivers, lack of horsepower or headaches).

As for passive glasses they have a better chance of overcoming this notion that wearing glasses is uncool and not the way things should be. If iz3d monitors or Zalman's would become mainstream - meaning that they are known as types of monitors (like lcd, crt) which have world-wide popularity and are used in multiple fields (including design, medical research and others), in that case wearing glasses wouldn't be considered unnatural or even dorky and wouldn't be hampering the industry.
However it is more likely that autostereoscopy, if developed in a manner that sitting at an exact spot is not required, has better chances of becoming mainstream than a type of device which requires you to put something on.
From a different point of view I don't know if you've heard about Zalman's mind controlling device (it allows you to play games using facial expressions, head movement and brain waves). I don't know if it has been released already or not, but I can guarantee you that this kind of peripheral has a great future, even though you are required to wear a helmet, so I guess it all depends on proper marketing.

[cybereality]

I think Satchell brought up a valid point, and it makes sense given his position. Although us hobbyists have no qualms about wearing additional devices (be it HMDs, shutterglasses, IR tracking beacons, etc.) the mainstream are not interested in that. It may be an issue of perception, but more likely that no one has developed a mass-market S3D product yet. Lets be honest, many of the 3D glasses of the past were not designed for aesthetics or comfort. LC-shutter glasses, as a technology, can be made to be more appealing but the currently available products are poorly designed. The 2 popular models (ELSA/ED) just look plain nerdy. Its no wonder mainstream audiences are put off. Those new Samsung shutters look like a step in the right direction. Its not as much about the underlying technology as it is about the look and brand of the product.



I doubt S-3D will become a standard until at least 25% of consumers own an auto-stereo device and another 25%+ own 3d-ready hdtvs that could be upgraded for a nominal cost. Obviously the 3d sets must cost around the same price as 2D sets or else you won't see mainstream adoption. And even beyond these technical hurdles, there still needs to be popular content in S3D. This means major TV series (Heroes, 24, LOST, The Wire, etc.), sports programming (local, international, college games, etc.), children's cartoons, documentary (Discovery, History Channel), food and travel networks, adult, etc. People just aren't going to be interested with only a few niche titles available. With gaming there is more support, but its no where close to "plug-and-play". People might even be willing to wear glasses *if* it worked every time correctly and you didn't need a computer science degree just to get a game running.

Don't get me wrong, I think we are in exciting times for stereo-3d. There is just so much in disarray that I feel like we are jumping the gun trying to get the mainstream involved at this point in time. I think TDVision has a good game plan regarding the 3D blu-ray codecs and other standards that could motivate the industry to come together. So we are making some progress, but even the greatest technological advancements will mean nothing if there is no content to back it up.

@artox: I think you mean to say the OCZ Neural Impulse Actuator.

[budda]

The classic ELSA type stereo shutterglasses definitely need a makeover, both for style and ergonomics.

I can suggest some improvements.

[1] They need to be lightweight and rechargeable.

Replacing batteries in wireless shutterglasses is an inconvenience. Shutterglasses with a small rechargeable lithium-ion battery will ensure the shutterglasses work for long periods. A small charging station can be used to recharge or top them up overnight.

[2] The stereovision effect should be made to work just as well if you tilt your head to the side. There could be a sensor in the visor which tells the display to tilt the stereo pairs so they remain perfectly synchronised in the eye plane. The Nintendo Wii has shown how effective a sensor bar can be.

[3] Whilst the polarizers in the shutterglasses work very well, they could be improved with new technology. Apparently, carbon nanotube films can be made to provide extinction ratios of around 50,000 to 1. This technology could make the display itself the limiting factor in stereovision quality and performance.


Thanks.

[LukePC1]

If $ is no object, you could get those CristalEyes glasses. They are about 300-600$ each! And they are not designed properly and don't have a sensor yet. Compare that to the 20-30$ Ebay gadjets

I think $$$ is a very big object in S3D becoming mainstream. If you wouln't have to pay much (more) to get a well working S-3D solution out of the box, I think there would be many poeople at least trying it out.


Example: Every new LCD monitor has polarization. Why not just change it to interlaced or Checkerboard pattern? I don't know, if it would add much to the production cost, but it would add S-3D Ready to the displays for about 10% more costs (or even less!). If this S-3D Ready is printed on the case then you need only 10 more bucks to get into S-3D!
Or did I leave ot that glowing surface? Could it be avoided, so the screen is more 'normal'?

And Artox is right, too. I got a racing wheel from somewhere, but I'm to stupid to use it (and it does only work on a second computer for some reason). Well I can use it, but I'm better with my keyboard

[koshien]

From a different point of view I don't know if you've heard about Zalman's mind controlling device (it allows you to play games using facial expressions, head movement and brain waves). I don't know if it has been released already or not, but I can guarantee you that this kind of peripheral has a great future, even though you are required to wear a helmet, so I guess it all depends on proper marketing.

I see future (20 years from now) like this:


+

+



The Xbox 360 one is a fake (maybe they were testing gamers' reactions....???)...but the TDVisor is basically available...while the brain waves helmet is still a "rough" prototype...
Before the brain waves helmet there are going to be improvements on the motion control side (evolution of wii-fitness and wii-mote) and head tracking.
20-30 years to make it all together, that's my opinion.

[Okta]

Completely dissagree. The need for working drivers and decent 3d displays at a reasonable price is all that is holding back s3d.

If you build it, they will come.

[Neil]

Hi Okta,

Can you elaborate more? Are you disagreeing with the editorial, XNA's statement? Please explain.

Regards,
Neil

[pixel67]

I personally think his statements are accurate. ANY type of glasses (LCD, anaglyph, or polarized) all hold back the potential for mass S3D adoption (keyword is potential). I state this simply on the fact that you can't currently walk by any active or passive 3D display at Best Buy and get the full effect, nor is the industry really marketing the technology the way it should be. Classic chicken or the egg story. If you walked into BB and while browsing the latest games and displays you saw images literally jump off the screen in 3D and HD, without the need for glasses, wouldn't you be in line to apply for that nice, yellow BB Credit Card? But no, instead we have zero retailer penetration of the complete solution. Still nothing more than a collection of parts (albeit a much better collection that we used to have). You always see demo systems for the consoles in Best Buy, EB Games, etc. 3D enable one of those and watch stuff fly off the shelves! You would have to pry kids away from them with a crow bar and they would be bugging their parents for months to get one!

Now, here is some free advice for the Vendors and Retailers of the world (Samsung, Mitsubishi, Zalman, IZ3D, etc...). Take your trade show demo systems on the road and set them up in a RETAIL environment! Don't simply put some plastic banner in front of the display with some cheesy "3D Ready" logo and have it run the same 2d programs as the systems sitting next to you. Spend the extra $$$ on a PC that runs an impressive S3D Demo loop and demand that the retailers market ALL of the abilities of your shiny new system! Even a prerendered movie that runs on a $400 PC would be fine, just SHOW IT!!! Gee, this could sell more computers AND displays if we show them together, huh... Sorry to come off as a smart a$$, but the solution is so simple. This really shouldn't be an issue given the millions Samsung and Mitsubishi spend on marketing, although a bigger challenge for the smaller players.

Next, we need to keep the pressure on the content developers. It should be their responsibility to render the stereo pair natively, not DDD or IZ3D's or Nvidia's. The latter should ONLY be concerned about formatting the existing image to work on their display solution or the display solutions they are contracted to convert for in the case of DDD and Nvidia. Then you could plug in new technology as it becomes available (auto-stereo, HMD, etc) and THEY ALL WORK!

I think it is good that Microsoft has visibility of the technology but hope they are also keenly aware that they, as a content developer, are responsible for the current state of S3D. Now, why don't they spend the extra few weeks it would take create the first mass marketed S3D game for the XBox360, plug it in to a new DLP or PDP set at the local best buy instead of some cheap 2D monitor, put some glasses on a tether next to the game controller with a 3D on and off button, and see what REAL consumers actually think of the technology! So what if it only runs at 720P, S3D will more than make up for the limitation of rendering power on a console... Sony, ditto... Want to sell more software so your PS3 is actually profitable? Well, here is a way!

My .02

[cybereality]

Now, here is some free advice for the Vendors and Retailers of the world (Samsung, Mitsubishi, Zalman, IZ3D, etc...). Take your trade show demo systems on the road and set them up in a RETAIL environment! Don't simply put some plastic banner in front of the display with some cheesy "3D Ready" logo and have it run the same 2d programs as the systems sitting next to you. Spend the extra $$$ on a PC that runs an impressive S3D Demo loop and demand that the retailers market ALL of the abilities of your shiny new system! Even a prerendered movie that runs on a $400 PC would be fine, just SHOW IT!!! Gee, this could sell more computers AND displays if we show them together, huh... Sorry to come off as a smart a$$, but the solution is so simple. This really shouldn't be an issue given the millions Samsung and Mitsubishi spend on marketing, although a bigger challenge for the smaller players.

They've done stuff like that before, and if anything it has hurt the industry, not helped. For example, they used to have X3D glasses on display at the local Toys R Us (just like ED glasses). There was a small pyramid of boxes with a computer inside a kiosk. I think they had the Spider-Man game for the PC on a demo with a CRT screen (this is a few years ago, obviously). Even though I already had the same shutter glasses, I wanted to try them out just to see what other people would experience. Of course they didn't work. The game was setup on page-flipping correctly, but the glasses were all out of sync for whatever reason. Who knows how many people tried it and thought it was bunk. And the staff there did not know enough to configure it correctly. I tried to tell them but they honestly had no idea what I was talking about. So the average consumers will just get to the wrong impression. I imagine it would be like that in many retail outlets. Lets be honest, the staff have issues just keeping a PS3 or Xbox360 demo running, forget about a PC with S-3D drivers, active shutter-glasses, etc. If we are talking about passive projection, then that could work (with like a bin of throw-away plastic glasses). But with active stereo there are just too many issues for multiple viewers (which is what you need in a store environment). Plus, how do you stop people from stealing the glasses? There are a lot of issues with promoting like this.

[koshien]

Hi guys!
You are probably right. Autostereoscopic TVs would give that push to make everyone being fascinated by S-3D, mostly because of the ease of actually seeing what S-3D is about, just by walking by. I know, by now, autostereoscpic TVs performances are not quite the same as iz3d and Samsung solutions...but it would be a start. Just like in music business. Mp3s are for the Mass market and they are easy to share, download and whatever... if you want better music, you just head to Super Audio Cd or maybe to the old long play records (analog music is better...).
I have to say though, 3D movie theatres quality might be a good way to get people involved in growing 3D-market...and they might want to have the same thing at home.
One last thing... demo stations are possible
Just a few days ago a big Mall opened in Rome in Italy. They had a Samsung room and they showed 3D-trailers of EA games. Unfortunately the only 3D tv from Samsung available here in Europe is a 50". If it was a 42" I would have definitely bought it.
Here are some pictures my girlfriend took with her cellphone:

[pixel67]

They've done stuff like that before, and if anything it has hurt the industry, not helped. For example, they used to have X3D glasses on display at the local Toys R Us (just like ED glasses). There was a small pyramid of boxes with a computer inside a kiosk. I think they had the Spider-Man game for the PC on a demo with a CRT screen (this is a few years ago, obviously).

Marketing at Toys R Us would be a waste of money, I agree. They don't have the technical "know how" to keep anything running. But BB has their own "geek squad" that should have no issue maintaining a demo system.

Even though I already had the same shutter glasses, I wanted to try them out just to see what other people would experience. Of course they didn't work. The game was setup on page-flipping correctly, but the glasses were all out of sync for whatever reason. Who knows how many people tried it and thought it was bunk. And the staff there did not know enough to configure it correctly. I tried to tell them but they honestly had no idea what I was talking about. So the average consumers will just get to the wrong impression. I imagine it would be like that in many retail outlets. Lets be honest, the staff have issues just keeping a PS3 or Xbox360 demo running, forget about a PC with S-3D drivers, active shutter-glasses, etc. If we are talking about passive projection, then that could work (with like a bin of throw-away plastic glasses). But with active stereo there are just too many issues for multiple viewers (which is what you need in a store environment). Plus, how do you stop people from stealing the glasses? There are a lot of issues with promoting like this.

Getting a PC Setup now is a far cry from what it used to be. Lock the desktop for security purposes and connect a tether to the glasses to keep from from being stolen (just like the controllers are). I agree that there is always a risk, but in an environment like BB "Magnolia theater", they should really be taking the time to show off what these sets can really do vs just having them run the same HD content as standard 2D HDTV's.

Just a few days ago a big Mall opened in Rome in Italy. They had a Samsung room and they showed 3D-trailers of EA games. Unfortunately the only 3D tv from Samsung available here in Europe is a 50". If it was a 42" I would have definitely bought it.

This is exactly what I am talking about. HDTV's aren't toys, they are high end purchases so position the technology to the correct audience.

[koshien]

This is exactly what I am talking about. HDTV's aren't toys, they are high end purchases so position the technology to the correct audience.

You are definitely right, but I' ll tell you a funny episode about that day.
I usually go check audio-video websites for daily news and just 2 or 3 weeks ago I found out about a 3D movie theater just out of Rome. I was so excited because before knowing that, I thought I should have gone in the North of Italy (richer than South of Italy) to watch the "Journey to the center of the earth" in 3D.
Well, once in the mall, there was a family watching this 3D plasma. Parents were around 35 years old and the little girl...I would say 8. Well, I told them about this new 3D movie theatre just out of Rome...and you know what? They already knew about it! Because of the Hanna Montana 3D show... they told me the little lady was such a huge fan of Hanna Montana. I think the little child read about it on mickey mouse comic or something like that...
So, let' s position the technology to the correct audience, but let's not forget the power of little children crying and yelling to get what they want
Disney might have actually a big part in all this... and videogamers are sometimes a little too conservative in my opinion. Non-conservative gamers have to show the way

[android78]

Marketing at Toys R Us would be a waste of money, I agree. They don't have the technical "know how" to keep anything running. But BB has their own "geek squad" that should have no issue maintaining a demo system.

This is where I believe S3D falls down. The guys at your average Toy R' Us would probably be typical of your average user. Therefore, if they can't get it setup correctly, how would you expect the other potential consumers of this technology to? When S3D becomes truely plug'n'play, then it may take off.

I don't believe that having to wear glasses is ALL that's holding S3D back... just look at the cinemas and you will see that people don't seem to mind wearing glasses so long as they actually improve the experience.
I think there are three main sides to the issue:
1. Part of the problem with home solutions at the moment is that the ones that seem to be getting created for mass market (Samsung S3D displays... can't think of any others) still require bulky active glasses which are both ugly (which limits the effect of promotion) and uncomfortable (so if someone is to take the leap and try them they will be put off them). If only the major players would learn from the likes of iZ3D and the user community then I'm sure they could potentially make a pasive solution.
2. It needs to be truely plug and play so you just have to get your S3D viewer and plug it into you S3D enabled output (on computer or blueray player), all the setup is guided through to setup the correct convergance/separation, etc. Then you put in the game that has 3D certified (by the developer) and it works. If there is issues with the way S3D is displayed then you get on the developers forum and let them know there's a bug... so it can be fixed with a patch.
3. It needs proper promotion. Lets say you were to create some advertising like the clever mac vs pc ones, I'm sure this would spark a lot of interest. Just see how well S3D is going in the cinemas and it seems to be without much advertising of S3D, imagine how huge it would be if they actually advertised it!

[pixel67]

Marketing at Toys R Us would be a waste of money, I agree. They don't have the technical "know how" to keep anything running. But BB has their own "geek squad" that should have no issue maintaining a demo system.

This is where I believe S3D falls down. The guys at your average Toy R' Us would probably be typical of your average user. Therefore, if they can't get it setup correctly, how would you expect the other potential consumers of this technology to? When S3D becomes truely plug'n'play, then it may take off.

I don't believe that having to wear glasses is ALL that's holding S3D back... just look at the cinemas and you will see that people don't seem to mind wearing glasses so long as they actually improve the experience.
I think there are three main sides to the issue:
1. Part of the problem with home solutions at the moment is that the ones that seem to be getting created for mass market (Samsung S3D displays... can't think of any others) still require bulky active glasses which are both ugly (which limits the effect of promotion) and uncomfortable (so if someone is to take the leap and try them they will be put off them). If only the major players would learn from the likes of iZ3D and the user community then I'm sure they could potentially make a pasive solution.
2. It needs to be truely plug and play so you just have to get your S3D viewer and plug it into you S3D enabled output (on computer or blueray player), all the setup is guided through to setup the correct convergance/separation, etc. Then you put in the game that has 3D certified (by the developer) and it works. If there is issues with the way S3D is displayed then you get on the developers forum and let them know there's a bug... so it can be fixed with a patch.
3. It needs proper promotion. Lets say you were to create some advertising like the clever mac vs pc ones, I'm sure this would spark a lot of interest. Just see how well S3D is going in the cinemas and it seems to be without much advertising of S3D, imagine how huge it would be if they actually advertised it!

Excellent points! I will be the first one to say active glasses are bulky but comfort depends completely on the manufacturer. I can wear my Crystaleyes for hours without any eyestrain or pressure points, but at the moment they are very expensive too so you get what you pay for. They are supposed to have some new models coming out soon. The Holy Grail of 3D is obviously glasses free but the technology just isn't there yet to minimize the trade-offs (resolution and hot spots). I don't own a polarized solution but have watched many 3D movies with great results, but all had some level of ghosting. Active gives me a ghost free image with bulk currently being the trade-off. Further miniturization of the technology is really in order and development of the technology really hasn't gone anywhere in a decade so it is long overdue. I really couldn't care less what type of glasses need to be worn and would prefer to have none, but I personally won't sacrifice image quality just because one type of glasses looks "cooler" than another. If I am going to spend upwards of $1000 on a 3D HDTV then I would expect the best the technology has to offer.

On the plug and play experience, wouldn't that be great! I think DDD and IZ3D are getting closer and closer to this. The setup program that comes with the DDD drivers does a very good job of setting up the display for proper use and the idea of having custom tailored profiles is huge plus, but it is really the developers job to do this.

And last but not least, Marketing Marketing Marketing! I love the idea of having a "PC vs MAC" parody as those are so funny but educate people at the same time. The S3D Community would be well served by having a 30 second plug at every 3d movie that allows the user to put on a pair of glasses and experience the same thing we do at home! Marketing really hasn't been tapped that much and it is really a shame...

[android78]

The S3D Community would be well served by having a 30 second plug at every 3d movie that allows the user to put on a pair of glasses and experience the same thing we do at home! Marketing really hasn't been tapped that much and it is really a shame...

BRILLIANT IDEA!!! That's something that would work well for the current manufacturers (iZ3D, DDD, TDVision, etc) because people have the S3D glasses on so you can give them a true idea of what a game can be like in S3D. Can you imagine if they actually had some of Tomb raider, COD4, and FSX play on those huge cinema screens in S3D? The impact would be huge! You'd have to get an agreement with the game developer/distributor to use their content, but you may even be able to convince them to help fund the advertising expense since it's advertising their game as well.

[pixel67]

The S3D Community would be well served by having a 30 second plug at every 3d movie that allows the user to put on a pair of glasses and experience the same thing we do at home! Marketing really hasn't been tapped that much and it is really a shame...

BRILLIANT IDEA!!! That's something that would work well for the current manufacturers (iZ3D, DDD, TDVision, etc) because people have the S3D glasses on so you can give them a true idea of what a game can be like in S3D. Can you imagine if they actually had some of Tomb raider, COD4, and FSX play on those huge cinema screens in S3D? The impact would be huge! You'd have to get an agreement with the game developer/distributor to use their content, but you may even be able to convince them to help fund the advertising expense since it's advertising their game as well.

Yep, would be totally cool and a way to hit your target audience. Too bad I can't take my PC down to the IMAX and play a little COD4 on the big screen!

[cybereality]

The S3D Community would be well served by having a 30 second plug at every 3d movie that allows the user to put on a pair of glasses and experience the same thing we do at home! Marketing really hasn't been tapped that much and it is really a shame...

BRILLIANT IDEA!!! That's something that would work well for the current manufacturers (iZ3D, DDD, TDVision, etc) because people have the S3D glasses on so you can give them a true idea of what a game can be like in S3D. Can you imagine if they actually had some of Tomb raider, COD4, and FSX play on those huge cinema screens in S3D? The impact would be huge! You'd have to get an agreement with the game developer/distributor to use their content, but you may even be able to convince them to help fund the advertising expense since it's advertising their game as well.

Yeah, thats really the best idea I have heard in a long time. The people already have the glasses on, its perfect. Thats the hard part, after that the games can sell themselves.

Also, if the Avatar game is really in S3D then I'm pretty sure Ubisoft would want to do this with the movie release.

[koshien]

Yes!
Really a good idea!
No question every gamer in the movie theatre would want to play in s-3d!
Than he goes to the mall and eventually finds a samsung-mitsubishi demo station... just great

[artox]

pixel67 - great idea about the preview in Imax cinemas. That will require some coordination between the gaming industry - companies like Ubi, EA and others and Imax. I suppose you can't really be using their products without permission to advertise another product, although it would be of great benefit to them. It would be even better if iz3d ( or zalman, mitsubishi, samsung) team up with gaming companies to promote games in s-3d in Imax cinemas - a true win-win situation.

However your other idea -

pixel67 wrote:

2. It needs to be truely plug and play so you just have to get your S3D viewer and plug it into you S3D enabled output (on computer or blueray player), all the setup is guided through to setup the correct convergance/separation, etc. Then you put in the game that has 3D certified (by the developer) and it works. If there is issues with the way S3D is displayed then you get on the developers forum and let them know there's a bug... so it can be fixed with a patch.

...would be really hard to achieve, at least at this point in time. Making games s-3d certified in theory may not be so hard, I assume, if stereo becomes mainstream and someone picks up the torch (like mtbs3d has done now, only bigger - like amd or nvidia), but making it plug n' play is a whole different concept. I don't mean displaying post-processing effects or hud, or crosshair ( all of that can be taken care of, as the guys at iz3d have shown us) but rather settings like convergence and separation. We as a community cannot settle upon a perfect setting ( and we being people who've been playing in stereo for a long time) what is to say about someone who has no idea how stereo works. There are different drivers for the different types of hardware and settings vary from game to game, not to mention personal taste of how stereo should be set. So you see that may be the hardest thing to achieve, it's not like widescreen support - you either have a ws resolution support or you don't ( and if you don't you go to widescreengamingforum.com and check for hacks).

[pixel67]

pixel67 - great idea about the preview in Imax cinemas. That will require some coordination between the gaming industry - companies like Ubi, EA and others and Imax. I suppose you can't really be using their products without permission to advertise another product, although it would be of great benefit to them. It would be even better if iz3d ( or zalman, mitsubishi, samsung) team up with gaming companies to promote games in s-3d in Imax cinemas - a true win-win situation.

However your other idea -

pixel67 wrote:

2. It needs to be truely plug and play so you just have to get your S3D viewer and plug it into you S3D enabled output (on computer or blueray player), all the setup is guided through to setup the correct convergance/separation, etc. Then you put in the game that has 3D certified (by the developer) and it works. If there is issues with the way S3D is displayed then you get on the developers forum and let them know there's a bug... so it can be fixed with a patch.

...would be really hard to achieve, at least at this point in time. Making games s-3d certified in theory may not be so hard, I assume, if stereo becomes mainstream and someone picks up the torch (like mtbs3d has done now, only bigger - like amd or nvidia), but making it plug n' play is a whole different concept. I don't mean displaying post-processing effects or hud, or crosshair ( all of that can be taken care of, as the guys at iz3d have shown us) but rather settings like convergence and separation. We as a community cannot settle upon a perfect setting ( and we being people who've been playing in stereo for a long time) what is to say about someone who has no idea how stereo works. There are different drivers for the different types of hardware and settings vary from game to game, not to mention personal taste of how stereo should be set. So you see that may be the hardest thing to achieve, it's not like widescreen support - you either have a ws resolution support or you don't ( and if you don't you go to widescreengamingforum.com and check for hacks).

I agree. "Plug and Play" really hasn't been defined yet in S3D so it is impossible to achieve something that hasn't been defined. I think we have come a LONG way comparitively and IZ3D/DDD are on the right track with things such as autoconvergence. Still, a user will need to familiarize themselves with some type of GUI to achieve what is the best S3D for them. It just needs to be in the game engine vs high overhead conversion after the fact so developers know how to fix certain anomalies and can optomize their game for stereo output.

[cybereality]

Another really important point I just realized no one has brought up: you cannot display 3D images on a 2D display without additional hardware and/or software. This is probably an even bigger issue than the stigma of wearing "nerdy" glasses. There is no way an average joe can go to a review site and see what a stereo3d product has to offer. When you are buying a product there are usually clear specs or comparisons that can be made. For video cards, you can look at benchmarks are get a feel for how much better one card is to your current card. If you are buying a digital camera, you can view actual pictures taken with the camera. If you are looking at a console system, you can watch a video trailer for a game and imagine playing it. For stereo3d there is nothing. Even cross-eye photos are just too much for the general public. This is a core problem because how do you sell something when you cannot demonstrate its features without actually using it? People just don't even believe it works until they see it, and they can't see it without actually having it. Only the die-hard will spend big $$$ on a leap of faith.

[artox]

Well, a review could be made using anaglyph screenshots (getting paper anaglyph glasses is cheaper, but it will be still needed to byu a type of glasses). In general I agree with you that promoting such a product without the product itself is hard. You have to actually at least be able to do the cross-eye method to see in stereo, and for some people it is very hard.
One option remains - one that is really irritating however (to me at least) , but viewable without any glasses or changing of eye focal point is the shaky-image (a gif file which flips between left and right eye).

[pixel67]

Another really important point I just realized no one has brought up: you cannot display 3D images on a 2D display without additional hardware and/or software. This is probably an even bigger issue than the stigma of wearing "nerdy" glasses. There is no way an average joe can go to a review site and see what a stereo3d product has to offer. When you are buying a product there are usually clear specs or comparisons that can be made. For video cards, you can look at benchmarks are get a feel for how much better one card is to your current card. If you are buying a digital camera, you can view actual pictures taken with the camera. If you are looking at a console system, you can watch a video trailer for a game and imagine playing it. For stereo3d there is nothing. Even cross-eye photos are just too much for the general public. This is a core problem because how do you sell something when you cannot demonstrate its features without actually using it? People just don't even believe it works until they see it, and they can't see it without actually having it. Only the die-hard will spend big $$$ on a leap of faith.

That is the point I was trying to make earlier. The way the technology is marketed makes all the difference. Place it where people can see it and experience it vs using some animated gif or "3D Ready" logo and leaving them wondering, "What is this 3D stuff about"? It is kind of like trying to simulate 7:1 surround sound through a pair of desktop speakers. You have to be there and experience it yourself to "get it"... After experiencing it, then they can go online and make an informed purchase if they feel more comfortable in cyberspace...

[Killigath]

"Plug and Play" has been mentioned several times in this thread. Being a new user, one of my biggest hurdles with getting my 3D setup running was figuring out what codecs to install and use with my DDD player. All these 3D companies need to make the whole installation and setup process easier for the average user. IE, work towards a more plug and play environment.

I consider myself a person with an above average technical skill level. I'm a programmer/computer tech and make my living helping other people with computers. So I am fairly knowledgeable. I did get my 3D setup working, but it took me doing some research and several hours installing and re-installing different DVD playback packages till I got it working properly. The whole process needs to be "dummy proofed" if this is going to go mainstream.

Here are a few things I think would really help:

1. Software packages need to have built in DVD / Blu-ray Codecs.
Playback of media in media players that are designed for 3D should not force you to go purchase 2D playback software Go up on the price if yo must, but
this really really needs to be bundled in with your software. Don't make people download extra software to run your progams. I would dare say that over
1/2 your customer base would not know how to go lookup codecs on google.

2. Starter Kits need to include cables (DVI / HDMI / AV) for TV connections(or at least instructions/reccomendations)
This may seem a little ridiculous to most of us. We all know that you have to hook your TV to a computer and how. But what about the average user?
I had a buddy over last night showing him my 3D setup. After we got done he said (and i quote). "Man thats really cool, but if you just gave me all your
electronic stuff there is no way I would get any of it working" (TV/AV-Reciever/Computer/3D). Lets face it, the average user is doesn't know how to change
inputs on an AV-reciever much less run software form a PC on a TV. This is something the industry has to overcome. Packaging cables is going to be a
must.

3. For PC to TV solutions Wireless I\O devices are needed.
This is also self explanatory. The general public will need to understand that they will want a wirelss Keyboard / Mouse for controlling their PC on their
couch. At the very least extension cables will be needed. This is knowledge we all also take for granted but your average joe schmo won't realize till he
gets it home and tries to use the package.

4. All 3D media players need some form of GUI to change options.
I have only experienced the Tridef player so far, so this may or may not apply to other companies products.
With tridef, there are only hotkeys to make option changes. They work, but are not user friendly. Average Joe is going to need some sort of GUI options
panel with all the options so you can change them on the fly.

[LukePC1]

WOW this is good Input and showes the problems. I had them too, when I started. It took me days to get at least some 3D to work! I needed hours to finde suteable information and had to install 5 and more drivers (which didn't help much). My problem was, that I used xp sp1 instead of sp2

to your first point:
1) would it help to have a software bundle here on MTBS3D ready for download? Maybe someone could add a .bat file, which starts all installations in the right order. Afaik the user would have to click a lot of next's, but it would help I think...
Of course it's better, if the company does it itself, but if they don't want to...

4) you could try out stereoscopic player it has a 2D menue loke most applications... it supports most outputs, too.

[Killigath]

Yeah I think a .bat file , or even a good link to instructions would have helped me alot. I didn't find this web site until after I got it all working, so in my particular case it wouldn't have helped much. I wonder if Tridef would be willing to put a link to MTBS on their DVD decoder page. That would have been fantastic.
DVD Decoder Page - http://www.tridef.com/support/dvd-decoders.html

My deal was, on Tridef.com all it said was you need a dvd decoder, gave me a link to their preferred decoder's web site (WinDVD) and thats it. There were $20, $79, and $99 packages for WinDVD. Now I just spent $199 on a starter kit and $60x2 on extra glasses. $144 on a wireless keyboard/mouse bluetooth combo(my choice, i know). Also, about $60 on miscellaneous audio and video cables to hook it all up. And now they are saying I need to buy a DVD decoder, UGH!!!. I realize my 5 year old version of PowerDVD needed to be replaced, which was the only thing that kept me sane. But how will the general public feel when they drop roughly $500 on a 3D setup (more if you dont have a DLP) and then find out they need to spend more money to get it to work... See my point?


I will definitely give Stereoscopic player a go one night this week. I'm waiting on on 4 DVD's from Amazon as we speak(Alien Adventure, Haunted Mansion, Encounters in the 3rd Dimension, and Spy Kids). Can't wait to try those out on both players. Its amazing they are shipping from Atlanta, GA (2 hours drive from my house) , ordered them on July 3rd and not gonna get em till the 11th. *waves hands and curses at the US postal service*

[nubie]

I think I agree, but the glasses don't even need to be active.

The "Real D" setup uses a circular polarized color wheel on DLP I believe, this allows one projector to display passive headgear 3D.

I just wish that this technology could be made available to the home user (how much more could a new color wheel with polarization possibly cost? Surely not more than a couple thousand dollars beyond a standard DLP including the software/electronics.)

The checkerboard LCD is a brilliant concept as well.

The problem is one of cooperation for sure: there is no content. The drivers are ridiculous (iZ3D is helping, but they are just getting started), and the 3D content available is mostly crap (I couldn't really get encounter in the 3rd dimension to do much, plus at half of TV resolution it was just junk). The hardware guys have no software, the software guys have no hardware, there are no plug and play solutions.

Kudos to the theaters for releasing 3D movies, but you need to start cooperating to get this content sold at home, or at the least so people can see it in person, it is over an hour drive for me to see, and the theater only plays one movie (currently journey to the center of the earth).