Should I use iZ3D or my Samsung DLP TV for 3D gameing?

Post by **Ifandbut** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:38 pm

Hi all,
After seeing a add for iZ3D on a website I was bowen away at the fact that there were monitors that can do 3D and are affordable. Last October I bought a Samsung DLP TV that is 3D Ready (HL-T617S) but there was very little information about it on Samsung's website. I was able to find a link to DDD where I could get shutter glases and software.
So I am haveing proublems deciding if I should get the gear for my HDTV or I should get the iZ3D. I'v made my pro/con list below. Maybe someone here could point out some things I mised.

Samsung 3D
+ Cheaper then iZ3D. $150 for glasses and software then $5 for each software license (which I think is total BS)
+ Big 61" screen setup with a sound system sound.
+ I'm told there is little to no ghosting with the shutter glasses.

- I dont know how the shutter glasses will fit over my prescription ones. I'm blind as a bat without them.
- I like to watch TV while I'm playing games so I cant do that with this.
- Only compatible with the games that are on DDD's website unless there is other software I can use.
- Hard to find information about the setup and customization options.

iZ3D
+ Comes with clip-on glasses so I know I can use it with my prescription glasses.
+ Compatable with several video cards and just about any semi-new game
+ I can watch TV while I play my games (no idea how TV will look with the glasses on)
+ The Devs appear to be very active with the community and I really respect any company that does that.
+ Basicaly Plug-and-Play with some tweaking to get the 3D effect just right.

- Expensive
- Ghosting, but might not be that noticeable depending on the game and they have new glasses they are testing to reduce this proublem
- Smaller screen

Any input would be very helpful. I was thinking about geting a autostereoscopic display but the only one I found was over $3,000. There was one anounced by Phillips recently but I dont think it will be out till Christmas at the soonest and I dont think it will be much cheaper.

Thanks for the input.
-Ifandbut

Post by **Okta** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:00 pm

The way i look at it the most important portion of the s3d mix is drivers because without them you have 2d. Its always going to be a gamble where to throw your money because many 3d companys will create a 3d device and tack some rudimenary drivers to it enough to get some sales out the door then move on to the next big thing leaving you with a brick. To me the IZ3d drivers seem the biggest hope so far, although im not sure if there screens are the optimum solution.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:09 pm

You already have a 61" 3D-Ready screen. What is there to think about? I say get a pair of shutterglasses and check out what the TV you already have can do. You may be surprised.

iz3D is a good solution too, definitely better drivers, but you might as well see how good your current hardware is first.

Post by **mastRmind** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:08 pm

+ Cheaper then iZ3D. $150 for glasses and software then $5 for each software license (which I think is total BS)

Cheap shutter glasses: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

Post by **Tril** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:19 pm

mastRmind wrote:
+ Cheaper then iZ3D. $150 for glasses and software then $5 for each software license (which I think is total BS)
Cheap shutter glasses: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

These glasses won't work with the Samsung HDTV. The connector on the TV is a 3 pin mini-DIN connector for wireless glasses and those glasses don't have that connector.

Post by **pixel67** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:25 pm

Good pro/con list. I don't own an IZ3D but am really looking forward to their next release of drivers that will support DLP3D. I would say sit tight with your current setup, buy some glasses, and play around a bit. DDD drivers have improved quite a bit but even this may be a moot point with IZ3D and Nvidia both aiming to have DLP compatible drivers (Nvidia showed them at a recent conference). If the Sammy doesn't suit your needs after this then buy the IZ3D and rest knowing that you made a very informed decision... I have been living with the drivers, and their limitations, for months and still wouldn't trade my Sammy for a desktop monitor mainly due to ergonomic reasons. I just prefer gaming from a couch vs a desk chair and the FOV I can achieve with my setup is incredible.

Post by **Ifandbut** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:04 pm

pixel67 wrote:Good pro/con list. I don't own an IZ3D but am really looking forward to their next release of drivers that will support DLP3D. I would say sit tight with your current setup, buy some glasses, and play around a bit. DDD drivers have improved quite a bit but even this may be a moot point with IZ3D and Nvidia both aiming to have DLP compatible drivers (Nvidia showed them at a recent conference). If the Sammy doesn't suit your needs after this then buy the IZ3D and rest knowing that you made a very informed decision... I have been living with the drivers, and their limitations, for months and still wouldn't trade my Sammy for a desktop monitor mainly due to ergonomic reasons. I just prefer gaming from a couch vs a desk chair and the FOV I can achieve with my setup is incredible.

I was not aware that IZ3D was going to support DLP. I think the bigest reason I'm hesidant about getting the DDD gear is I dont know if the glasses will fit over my perscription glasses. If someone could reassure this point it would make my decision eaiser. I also really like the fact that I could play basicaly any DirectX 9 game with the IZ3D, DDD does not even have Assissan's Creed Drivers out yet and I have not seen a list of up comeing releases.

pixel67: What kind of setup do you have for your mouse/keyboard when playing on the couch? I have my TV set up so I can play games on it but I have not been able to find a comfortable place to put my mouse and keyboard.

Also, I saw on the DDD site that I needed "A DVI to HDMI cable or DVI to HDMI adaptor is required to connect to a Samsung 3-D DLP® HDTV". Now I do have that but when I conect my computer to the TV via HDMI I am overscaning a good 3-5%. I spent over a hour with Samsung on the phone and there is no way to disable the over scan and the overscan correction on the Nvidia drivers for my 8800GT does not do anything. If I connect my computer to the TV via VGA port I dont experience ovescan (infact I lose about 1" on all 4 sides of the screen but I can live with that).

Thanks for the input so far.

Edit: One more thing. I'v been looking at some cross eye screen shots from both IZ3D and DDD and the 3D immage looks flat. The characters look like they are 2D but just moved in and out of 3D space, the characters them selfs dont look 3D at all. Is this because of the cross eye rendering or is this what the 3D actualy looks like? It still looks cool, but not as good as I thought it would.

Post by **Tril** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:16 pm

Ifandbut wrote:Edit: One more thing. I've been looking at some cross eye screen shots from both IZ3D and DDD and the 3D image looks flat. The characters look like they are 2D but just moved in and out of 3D space, the characters them selfs don't look 3D at all. Is this because of the cross eye rendering or is this what the 3D actually looks like? It still looks cool, but not as good as I thought it would.

You're supposed to see everything 3D, not just separations between different depths. I have two theory :

1. Since you're looking at cross eyed screenshots, you're probably looking at very small pictures. You need different separation settings for different screen sizes. If these screenshots were taken with correct depth on a very big screen, they will appear to have less depth when looked at in a very small size.

2. Cross eyed is the problem. I tried to look a stereo picture (with the cross eyed method) that I know has a lot of depth/pop-out from looking at it with a 21 inch monitor and shutter glasses(Some cross eyed picture on flickr) and I mainly saw flat people in front of a farther background.

Post by **LukePC1** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:25 pm

Hey nice gallery for crosseyed

I like this this in tearms of depth

I'd accuse the size of the screen most. You can't get very much depth into such a small picture. Unfortunatly crosseyed limits the size of the screen dramatically, so Anaglyph could be better...

And then it's the settings of course. I bet you could get the right settings for S-3D even in crosseyed!

Maybe you like these Crosseyed game shots

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:25 pm

The DDD DLP glasses are similar in make to the ELSA Revelators. I've had those for years and have worn them with glasses. Obviously its easier if you don't wear prescription lens, but you can certainly manage. Many people do; its not really the biggest deal.

@Tril: Nice find man! I didn't know cross-eyed viewing could look so good.

Post by **yuriythebest** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:23 pm

LukePC1 wrote:Hey nice gallery for crosseyed

I'd accuse the size of the screen most. You can't get very much depth into such a small picture. Unfortunatly crosseyed limits the size of the screen dramatically, so Anaglyph could be better...

not true. on my 19' monitor I get about 19' of depth (divided between inward and outward), if not more. It's all about correct separation. I like very high separation that apparently some friends just see as a double image.

Post by **Ifandbut** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:37 pm

Thanks for that info about the cross eye pictures. I was looking at full rez pictures but had to scale them down to see both immages on my screen. That link was helpfull and I see a good amount of distance.

Does anyone know if I have to use HDMI from my computer to TV or if I can use VGA?

Post by **pixel67** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:21 pm

Ifandbut wrote:
pixel67 wrote:Good pro/con list. I don't own an IZ3D but am really looking forward to their next release of drivers that will support DLP3D. I would say sit tight with your current setup, buy some glasses, and play around a bit. DDD drivers have improved quite a bit but even this may be a moot point with IZ3D and Nvidia both aiming to have DLP compatible drivers (Nvidia showed them at a recent conference). If the Sammy doesn't suit your needs after this then buy the IZ3D and rest knowing that you made a very informed decision... I have been living with the drivers, and their limitations, for months and still wouldn't trade my Sammy for a desktop monitor mainly due to ergonomic reasons. I just prefer gaming from a couch vs a desk chair and the FOV I can achieve with my setup is incredible.
I was not aware that IZ3D was going to support DLP. I think the bigest reason I'm hesidant about getting the DDD gear is I dont know if the glasses will fit over my perscription glasses. If someone could reassure this point it would make my decision eaiser. I also really like the fact that I could play basicaly any DirectX 9 game with the IZ3D, DDD does not even have Assissan's Creed Drivers out yet and I have not seen a list of up comeing releases.

pixel67: What kind of setup do you have for your mouse/keyboard when playing on the couch? I have my TV set up so I can play games on it but I have not been able to find a comfortable place to put my mouse and keyboard.

Also, I saw on the DDD site that I needed "A DVI to HDMI cable or DVI to HDMI adaptor is required to connect to a Samsung 3-D DLP® HDTV". Now I do have that but when I conect my computer to the TV via HDMI I am overscaning a good 3-5%. I spent over a hour with Samsung on the phone and there is no way to disable the over scan and the overscan correction on the Nvidia drivers for my 8800GT does not do anything. If I connect my computer to the TV via VGA port I dont experience ovescan (infact I lose about 1" on all 4 sides of the screen but I can live with that).

Thanks for the input so far.

Edit: One more thing. I'v been looking at some cross eye screen shots from both IZ3D and DDD and the 3D immage looks flat. The characters look like they are 2D but just moved in and out of 3D space, the characters them selfs dont look 3D at all. Is this because of the cross eye rendering or is this what the 3D actualy looks like? It still looks cool, but not as good as I thought it would.

The DDD Drivers have a feature that can dynamically adjust any over/underscan. I didn't purchase the whole kit from DDD, only the software, but the glasses look like ED/Elsa type glasses so you shouldn't have a problem with this. As far as a stand to hold up your keyboard and mouse, you can buy them from Office Depot or Office Max. It is a very small adjustable stand that has separate tilt adjustements for both keyboard and mouse. Cost was about 20 bucks. I use a wireless desktop so i don't have cables running all over the place. I will have to check but i thought you had to use HDMI 3 on my sammy for 3D from a PC. Good luck!

Post by **Tril** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:11 pm

Logically, it should only work with a digital input because an analog input will blur pixels that are close to each other together. I tried to show a picture containing alternating red and blue lines of 1 pixels width on an Optoma HD71 at the native resolution of the projector. Using VGA, it showed a purple picture instead of a picture with red and blue columns of pixels. Using DVI, it showed columns of red and blue pixels. The same would have happened with a checkerboard pattern. If you did a similar test on the Samsung HDTV, you would probably get similar results. For this reason, the 3D Ready mode is probably only activated on the digital input. On the analog input, it would not be able to separate the left and right eye signals.

Post by **Ifandbut** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:22 pm

Tril wrote:Logically, it should only work with a digital input because an analog input will blur pixels that are close to each other together. I tried to show a picture containing alternating red and blue lines of 1 pixels width on an Optoma HD71 at the native resolution of the projector. Using VGA, it showed a purple picture instead of a picture with red and blue columns of pixels. Using DVI, it showed columns of red and blue pixels. The same would have happened with a checkerboard pattern. If you did a similar test on the Samsung HDTV, you would probably get similar results. For this reason, the 3D Ready mode is probably only activated on the digital input. On the analog input, it would not be able to separate the left and right eye signals.

Well if the overscan correction that is included with the DDD software works then useing HDMI wont be too big of a deal. I might just get the DDD set and play what games I can for starters just to get introduced to S3D but I think IZ3D is the better solution so I dont have to wait for some company to tell me what games I can play in 3D.

Thanks again for the input.

Post by **pixel67** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:41 am

Ifandbut wrote:
Tril wrote:Logically, it should only work with a digital input because an analog input will blur pixels that are close to each other together. I tried to show a picture containing alternating red and blue lines of 1 pixels width on an Optoma HD71 at the native resolution of the projector. Using VGA, it showed a purple picture instead of a picture with red and blue columns of pixels. Using DVI, it showed columns of red and blue pixels. The same would have happened with a checkerboard pattern. If you did a similar test on the Samsung HDTV, you would probably get similar results. For this reason, the 3D Ready mode is probably only activated on the digital input. On the analog input, it would not be able to separate the left and right eye signals.
Well if the overscan correction that is included with the DDD software works then useing HDMI wont be too big of a deal. I might just get the DDD set and play what games I can for starters just to get introduced to S3D but I think IZ3D is the better solution so I dont have to wait for some company to tell me what games I can play in 3D.

Thanks again for the input.

Have fun, however be aware that every driver out there has its limitations and all dictate what games you can and can't play in S3D. Contrary to popular belief, you CAN use the TriDef drivers to play other games in S3D. For example, I have been revisiting FarCry over the past several days using the Halo2 profile. 1080P at 70+FPS is really cool with this game! They allow you to associate purchased profiles with other executables but since each game always requires S3D Driver tweaking (ALL S3D Drivers need this to overcome rendering issues) your results will vary based on the profile you are using. Both Nvidia and IZ3D do exactly the same thing when a specific executable is run.

One of the aspects that you will love about DLP3D is it offers a ghost free experience with a very large FOV. Enjoy!

Post by **Ifandbut** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:01 am

pixel67 wrote: Contrary to popular belief, you CAN use the TriDef drivers to play other games in S3D. For example, I have been revisiting FarCry over the past several days using the Halo2 profile. 1080P at 70+FPS is really cool with this game! They allow you to associate purchased profiles with other executables but since each game always requires S3D Driver tweaking (ALL S3D Drivers need this to overcome rendering issues) your results will vary based on the profile you are using.

Now THAT was something I did not know and basically eliminates my current biggest proublem with TriDef. I thought I was stuck with only playing the games TriDef had profiles for. I knew that I would have to make tweaks to every game for it to look right.

Now one last question before I order the TriDef shutter glasses. When you tweak the settings, are they saved per profile or per executable? Ex: If you play FarCry and Halo2 with the same profile do you have to re-tweak the settings or does it know what settings you used the last time you ran the executable?

Thanks for all the answers pixel67, you really cleared up some concerns I had with using my Samsung.

Post by **LukePC1** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:23 am

Interesting news Pixel!

Didn't know it was possible. How good does it work to have these 'wrong' profiles for games?
Does it work for like 10% of the games, or does it work more often?

Post by **pixel67** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:36 am

I haven't had a chance to play around with other profiles yet (I was so giddy by getting Far Cry working that it brought tears to my eyes). My gaming time is very limited these days. Maybe I will have some time to play this weekend so don't expect any new information from me for a bit. They also just added the COD4 profile, which i haven't purchased yet, but the demo license is awesome. COD4 is such a cool game.

Post by **Ifandbut** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:02 am

Thank you all for making a hard decision even harder (I'm looking at you pixel67)

I ended up going with the IZ3D, but up till yesterday afternoon I could have flipped a coin. What tipped the balance for me was ddorpm on the IZ3D forums saying that he got Mass Effect working on IZ3D with great results. I'v allready played Mass Effect on the X360 but if this monitor is everything I hope it will be I will have to get it a second time just to experience it in 3D.

I ordered it from NewEgg on next day shipping so I should have it in time for the weekend.

Thanks again,
-Ifandbut

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:37 pm

Ifandbut wrote:I ordered it from NewEgg on next day shipping so I should have it in time for the weekend.

Congratulations, welcome to the wonderful world of stereo-3d!

Post by **ddorpm** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:02 pm

Congratulations on your purchase of the iZ3D monitor. I just posted 30 screenshots of Mass Effect in the MTBS Pending submissions to iZ3D gallery. I am very pleased with my recent new purchase of the iZ3D monitor from Newegg and believe you will be too. If you have any questions when you get your monitor just let us know. Have fun .....

ddorpm

Post by **pixel67** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:44 am

Congratulations! I know you will enjoy your purchase and look forward to seeing many more posts from you. I really hate to see the 3D capabilities of the Sammy ignored. You should look around for cheap set of shutters so you can do direct comparisons once the IZ3D Drivers support DLP3D as we haven't seen any direct comparisons between the two technologies.

have fun!

Post by **Ifandbut** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:59 am

pixel67 wrote:I really hate to see the 3D capabilities of the Sammy ignored. You should look around for cheap set of shutters so you can do direct comparisons once the IZ3D Drivers support DLP3D as we haven't seen any direct comparisons between the two technologies.

have fun!

I planed on it. It was mainly a matter of compatibility (I want to play as many games as possible now). I might even shell out the $150 in a few months for the TriDef drivers and glasses.