some questions to vadim

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:32 pm

Hi BlackQ,

Thank You very much for the information. I know its not exactly normal for a company to answer questions so openly. For that, we are all very grateful.

On a personal note, I've been keeping an eye on this thread and hoping someone would mention page flipping

I'm just curious... is it really planned?

I understand about the dual head. People who have already invested in an HMD would be unlikely to pay again for an iZ3D. This is where the iZ3D HMD driver would come in.

Sorry if I'm being too blunt but will a page flipping version not compete directly with sales of the iZ3D monitor?
Seeing that most people would rather have page flipping on CRT with iZ3D driver rather than the much more expensive iZ3D monitor - which is great mind you - but the price difference is huge.

Being honest here, I would have to say that even though I have the iZ3D monitor and play all my games with it almost daily; I would still rather pay through the teeth for the iZ3D driver for my projector using page flipping instead, for the simple reason that its a bigger picture and there is no ghosting.

I just don't quite understand how the company stands to gain from a page flipping version as every sale of the page flipping driver would be a missed potential sale of the iZ3D monitor that it has invested a lot into... It just doesn't make good business sense from where I am standing... but then I don't have all the facts

Maybe the page-flipping version would be a higher price than the dual head? That would level the playing field.
And what about current iZ3D monitor owners... would they get a *cough* discount on the driver?

I know that I personally would pay a much higher price than $200 for iZ3D quality page flipping driver.

Please don't feel obligated to answer my most awkward questions. I haven't exactly put you in a comfortable position here

-- Shahzad.

Post by **pixel67** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:51 pm

I see what you mean, Rage. Somewhat of a conflict of interest. However, when you go shopping for your next stereo solution and you already have the IZ3D Drivers, which stereo solution are you more inclined to purchase? And if you already have paid for the drivers and you decide to purchase the monitor, is it at a discounted price knowing that you already own a part of the package?

PiXeL

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:46 am

Hi, guys!

Page flipping is planned - this is matter of fact

There are few things we need to clarify technically and of course development team size and resources to do a lot of things in parallel.

Yes, you can use CRT and shutters or flipped projector (you can use two projectors and HMD mode) for 3D - but I don't this this is a big problem for us. If we want to fight for 3D community only - yes - this is "game with fixed sum" - somebody has to lose, but if we'll all together can attract people and convert them from 2d gaming to 3d gaming.... It is multi-million units market... we have place for everybody

Post by **genetic** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:35 am

BlackQ wrote:Hi, guys!

Page flipping is planned - this is matter of fact

There are few things we need to clarify technically and of course development team size and resources to do a lot of things in parallel.

Yes, you can use CRT and shutters or flipped projector (you can use two projectors and HMD mode) for 3D - but I don't this this is a big problem for us. If we want to fight for 3D community only - yes - this is "game with fixed sum" - somebody has to lose, but if we'll all together can attract people and convert them from 2d gaming to 3d gaming.... It is multi-million units market... we have place for everybody

BlackQ.....I think I love you

Post by **CarlKenner** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:15 am

Page flipping often doesn't compete with the iZ3D... because people with a single VGA port like me can't buy an iZ3D.

Dual input like TDVisor does compete with the iZ3D. But, on the other hand, both are helping build support for the industry as a whole, and benefit from each other's success.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:58 am

BlackQ.....I think I love you

I second that. BlackQ, are you married?

A modern company that actually cares about the community and the scene over short term profits... go figure

-- Shahzad.

Post by **MrHugoHugo** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:18 am

I wouldn't say that any in-/output technique is in competition with iz3d monitor per se. Its rather the s3d rig which is.

Anyone using an expensive planar-mirror monitor system, projectors or an HMD does not want to change to an iz3d monitor because they already have invested a lot in their monitor or do not want to use a monitor in the first place. If it is because of size, colour fastness, ghostless images or immersion, doesn't really matter. But what those gamers've already proven is that they are willing to spend a lot of money for s3d hence they will be the first to pay good money for the iz3d driver!

The only setup which (afa i can see) is in competition with iz3d monitor would be the old crt/shutter setup. But that too is no real competition because if you still are using crts/shutters and a cheap graca your definitely not going to spend your money on an iz3d monitor (since you still would have only your old graca to use it with. I am guessing that like me a lot of s3d gamers stick to their 79xx nvidia card. I am more than willing to buy a 88xx card and the driver but not the expensive monitor since I have already invested a bit in my setup).
Those games and please do not hate me for saying that, are most likley the low/mid budget s3d gaming fraction. And especially in that case it makes scence to sell the iz3d driver separately because all the major consumer entertainment companies are splitting their products for low/mid/high end markets to make MORE money that way (e.g. nvidia or ati deliberately cripple their gpus to sell them as low or mid budget cards).

In any case this is only my 2 cent (although any book on economics will tell you to use price and product discrimination to increase your income) and I think from a community AND financal point of view it is the best thing to do ... selling the iz3d driver separately I mean.

P.S: Again I hope I didn't insult anyone with the hole low/mid/high end budget stuff... but that is how you have to think if you want to survive as a company

... everybody should use whatever rig he/she is comfortable with ... and still iz3d is going to make a lot of money by selling their driver separately

Post by **pixel67** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:09 am

RAGEdemon wrote:
BlackQ.....I think I love you
I second that. BlackQ, are you married?

A modern company that actually cares about the community and the scene over short term profits... go figure

-- Shahzad.

Third that. Nice to see a company that actually recognizes a community exists!

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:39 am

I"m in progress of divorce

9 great years are ended - new adventures are in future... I'm a knight of the roads - and freedom can be sacrificed to love only, not for just marriage

I don;t forget I still need to solve Gravity issue

Post by **Likay** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:12 am

Sorry to hear about the divorce. Love every single of your words otherwise! Raid on!

cheers

Post by **Nobsi** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:10 pm

BlackQ wrote: Yes, you can use CRT and shutters or flipped projector (you can use two projectors and HMD mode) for 3D - but I don't this this is a big problem for us. If we want to fight for 3D community only - yes - this is "game with fixed sum" - somebody has to lose, but if we'll all together can attract people and convert them from 2d gaming to 3d gaming.... It is multi-million units market... we have place for everybody

Hello Vadim,
this statement made my day!

And in my young days I was told that russians belong to the dark side of the force...

I love you and this exciting community!

Post by **sharky** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 pm

in this statement forget that i am administrator or iz3d tester:

its AMAZING what such a small company is accomplishing! congrats to you and teh whole iz3d team..

Post by **BlackQ** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:18 pm

to Nobsi!

Geographically we are on the dark side when it is daytime in US

But I'm sure on our small planet it is not a big difference - dark because light and back every 24 hours

and I'm sure people are more important than governments

Post by **Jahun** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:37 am

good stuff

Really looking forward to all the things that will happen this year, might become pretty interesting.

Post by **wuhlei** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:16 pm

are they working on the driver is it out?

Post by **BlackQ** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:28 pm

yes - we are testing stage now - hope public beta will come soon - we have flu epidemic in Moscow - this shifted development a bit ..

Post by **Vorral** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:20 am

BlackQ wrote:yes - we are testing stage now - hope public beta will come soon - we have flu epidemic in Moscow - this shifted development a bit ..

Cool!!! You inform us about it on your site?

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:38 am

as soon as version will be published as beta we'll male announcement about this everywhere

Post by **wuhlei** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:29 am

here! http://www.ehow.com/how_2213699_flu-as- ... sible.html

get well soon

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:30 am

wow! such a nice advice

thanks - we'll use it in our development practice

Post by **Likay** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:28 pm

I have one question regarding the driver:

1: Will planar setups be supported?. Curious but have no intention to build one myself. Should be quite easy since one of the outputs simply are mirrored. Have no idea on how many that uses them though.

Hey: One thing's good though: If you're at testing stage then there is hardly no better things to do than gaming when ill.

Hope you/your staff get well soon. Have a tip on a cure as well: Really HOT sweet tea with honey and ginger! Old wise Grandma's recipe! Works wonder! I think you can add some vodka as well but the vodka has better effect taken separately.

It's proven here that if you drink enough of vodka it's surely more fun to be sick though.

cheers and thank you for exist!

Post by **BlackQ** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:51 pm

Hi, Likay!

Thank you for good wishes and well working recipe - we used some and our team in full shape now. Driver is sent out for alpha test - hope public beta will come really soon.

It is possible technically to run "Planar" output (need good name for it) - if you'll contact our marketing through info@iz3d.com with this request it will help.

Another idea you may try (I'm not sure it will work) - use coming HMD mode in 1.08 and rre-set second monitor coordinates to cheat GPU - then one output will go out in rotated form and you'll have .... may be...

Post by **LukePC1** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:15 pm

Yeah I'd like to have planar settup support, too. It's a good alternative, in case the driver for shutterglasses are not possible. I tried it with a common mirror and 2 crt's and it works. Just the basics of course, but it worked - and is easier to implement than shutter glasses.

I read the tearm 'TARDIS' for it somewere...

Post by **BlackQ** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:16 pm

if design is not an issue you can do it even with 1.08, by rotating monitor itself.... - no?

Post by **wuhlei** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:48 pm

any chance we could watch 3d movies with the beta?

Post by **LukePC1** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:32 am

BlackQ wrote:if design is not an issue you can do it even with 1.08, by rotating monitor itself.... - no?

well... no. If you want the image to be mirrored horizontally or vertically, you'd have to look at the back of the monitor. Or you'd have to mirror it twice.

the image should look like this:
_
_) becomes (_ . If you rotate it it's (

The problem is, that the planar system has only ONE mirror in it, which mirrors one of the monitors images, so it has to be displayed in mirrored mode. It would be nice, if you had a checkbox to mirror the second picture either vertically or horizontally (both setups exist).

Post by **MrHugoHugo** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:08 am

I second that too!

I am in fact using a planar mirror setup and would be very glad indeed if 1.08 would implement a mirroring functionality!

Cheers Ant

P.S: I am definitely going to purchase the 1.08 driver anyway because I have a second planar mirror setup with old crt's in place where one crt's is mirrored permanently. For that I had to re-wire that crt! (attention: if your do this at home, it is dangerous but surely manageable!) So I can not use that crt for anything else than s3d gaming (its the best use of a pc anyway

) but on the other hand now I can use normal dual output on that setup

Post by **Likay** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:09 pm

To Vadim: Great to hear you got your heat up again

! Here's a few links with pictures of "planar"-devices.
Planar device here: http://www.aldous.net/photo/project08.htm and here: http://www.planar.com/products/flatpane ... SD1710.cfm
Both links found in this mtbs3d forum thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=136

It's unfortunately not enough to rotate the image. One image needs to be mirrored and preferable vertically. If it was as simple as rotating it then that could easily be made on driverlevel. I checked my nvidiadriver and unfortunately there were no options there to mirror the picture, only rotating.

. I tried to alter settings in "advanced timing" tab by changing and switching some values but that only resulted in my monitor going away.

There might be a way by tinker with these settings but i think i'll leave it for those who dares.

And sure: I'll contact your marketing team and see what happens. Myself i have a dual polarized beamer rig but there seems to be other interested.

@Mr HugoHugo! Reversing the coil for the vertical movement (shifting two wires...)?. Brilliant idea! And incredible simple too. Compliments!

cheers

Post by **BlackQ** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:32 am

Hi, everybody!

Bad news is 1.08 code is fixed, because alpha is done and I sent it to testing - sorry, but we can not include planar support into 1.08, but we can do it for 1.09 without problem and I think we'll do it. We are going to have next planning session in 1-1.5 week to define next version parameters

I understand my mistake - I forget that it has to mirrored, not just rotated - no problem - we can do it in a driver

Post by **BlackQ** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:34 am

To wuhlei:

Hi!

What do you mean? You can see 3D movie on iZ3D using our player. We 1.08 you will have a possibility to make movie from the game for iZ3D format (same like anaglyph) using FRAPS.

Post by **The_Doctor** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:39 am

What is the problem with shutterglasses that it's not sure it can be done?

Post by **BlackQ** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:19 am

sync - we need to run shutter glasses through one output - there is not clear sync mechanism between frame - GPU generates frames one by one and put them into screen buffer and knows nothing was it taken from there or not - glasses closes eyes for corresponding frame from GPU and have no idea is it left or right or mixed. There are two way to solve this problem I assume:

1. Additional connector between GPU and shutter glasses for sync

2. Additional connector between visual device (monitor, TV etc) and glasses

Both ways are external for us and there are elements we can not control

Post by **MrHugoHugo** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:50 pm

BlackQ wrote:Hi, everybody!

Bad news is 1.08 code is fixed, because alpha is done and I sent it to testing - sorry, but we can not include planar support into 1.08, but we can do it for 1.09 without problem and I think we'll do it. ...

Hi BlackQ, that are in fact good (not bad) news! If you are planning to put that support in to the 1.09 version I am very happy about it and the fact that 1.08 code is fixed (in alpha) and that it is going to be the first professional! s3d driver to be purchased and beeing released so soon ... that makes my day!!! ...
So dont scare as with posts starting with ... "bad news..." ...

cheers Ant

Post by **BlackQ** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:16 pm

each coin has two sides

Post by **LukePC1** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:30 am

I found a partical solution for the Pageflipping drivers:

CarlKenner wrote:When you say HMD, you mean the TDVisor.
Other HMD's, like my VR920, don't use dual inputs, and I don't even have any computers with dual outputs.
[...]

The Vuzix VR920 uses page flipping, but sends a USB command after each page flip to say which eye it is for. So you don't have to worry about how long it takes to render a frame, or any of those other problems you mentioned. I'm sure Vuzix will give you whatever help you need to add support for it. There is quite a simple API for doing it.

I know this is no driver for shutterglasses, but it helps to support at least one more device. I don't know, how much work it is, to add one more display-type, but if it's not too much effort, it'd be wise to implement it (for more sold units of the driver).

Post by **BlackQ** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:41 am

good idea - we need to research this to understand the way of communication through USB - who is responsible for USB signal? how is this signal sync with GPU? etc etc

Post by **MrHugoHugo** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:32 pm

Hi BlackQ, hi guys,

since the iz3d driver is coming up i am planing in buying a new 88xx or 98xx n***** card. My questions now is how s3d is affecting the graphics card? Yes I know there is always that fps drop but just from a technical point of view:
Is s3d (meaning the rendering of two perspectives of the same scene) similar too a significant rise in resolution (e.g. a rise from 1280x1024 to 2560x1600)?

Because in that case a higher memory controller 384-bit vs. 256-bit and more ram would make the difference, right? (I know there was that discussion about gpu vs. cpu/ram but that is not what this is about. I am just wondering if using s3d means (performance wise) more or less playing on very high resolution like 1280x1024x2.)

thx a lot for any answers
cheers Ant

P.S: I know that this maybe not the perfect place to post this question but how would know that better than an actual s3d driver developer

VERY BIG THANKS for all your answers BlackQ!

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:49 pm

Hi, MrHugoHugo!

GPU memory is biggest bottleneck for most of the games - but depends on game structure 3D may need more calculation power and / or more GPU memory.

Partially it is similar with higher resolution, but not at 100% level - for example, even for higher resolution GLU uses common buffer structure, but we need more buffer to precess left and right to back and front - thus more memory need to be reserved for it.

We are going to change architecture significantly in 2.00 version this year - then our driver operation will be more similar with most of the games operation and we hope this will increase performance significantly.

Post by **KindDragon** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:52 pm

MrHugoHugo wrote: Is s3d (meaning the rendering of two perspectives of the same scene) similar too a significant rise in resolution (e.g. a rise from 1280x1024 to 2560x1600)?

It similar multiple width by 2, for all game rendering buffers.

Post by **MrHugoHugo** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:09 pm

thank you for those quick replies.

Sounds like this is going to be quite an interesting year: IZ3D 2.0

Just cant wait for 1.08!

Cheers Ant

some questions to vadim

!

Re: !